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Why the Big 3 are where they are now...

riderR1150GSAdv said:
So far in 7 years of Chevy truck ownership all I needed were 3 sets of tires (salt and sun dry-rots them before the tread is done...:banghead ) oil and filter changes and a set of parkingbrake pads. I only drive the truck for work and although it only has 80K miles I can't complain.
IMHO the problem for American cars is the perception that they still are the same crap that came from Detroit in the 80's and early 90's. Things have changed a lot and in the case of fuel economy, Chevy trucks beat anything the competition makes, foreign or domestic in the same size class. The Japanese still can't make a full size truck for the way we use them here in the US. Just look at what you see on farms and construction zones. I don't see too many 5th wheeltrailers hitched to a Tundra..
Are Japanese vehicles good?? Yes, but don't dismiss the domestics :usa too easily..Just my 2 cts..
Click to expand...

There is such a huge difference between US built trucks and US built cars as to make talking about them in the same paragraph almost meaningless. If one looks at the recent history of the US auto industry, the current Achilles heel leading to today's plight is the heavy investment in plant to build trucks and SUVs at the expense of a lineup of fuel efficient cars. If the US industry had put as much in cars as they put in trucks and big SUVs they would not be where they are today. GM had it right with the early Saturns but then abandoned everything that made them special, and competitive with the Asian imports, and started making them as re-badged Chevys or something. And the old saw about "making what we want" isn't true either. Ford managed to stay profitable by making money on trucks and losing money on cars. And many folks who wanted cars bought Asian cars by the boatload.

As for Tundras - we see lots of them pulling 5th wheel trailers here in the Big Bend. Even some of them pulling stock trailers and other stuff on the ranches.
 
I got to weigh in on this. IMO the absolute best value in a sport type car today is hands down a Mustang GT with 4.6L V8. My '07 GT gets 28 MPG on the road and the quality of construction is second to none. Oh, and it is one classy ride as well. The new Dodge Challenger would be my second choice although it does weigh more than the 'Stang and comes with much healthier price tag. For a light truck the Chev Silverado or F150 has no competition from any foreign maker, period!

I owned a Toyota Corolla POS once and never again! The thing suffered bent valves and was manufactured with a defective cylinder head. I will admit that Toyota never charged me anything to fix it and did extend the warranty but every 6K miles it was either bent valves or blown head gasket. I found out about the defective head after I had traded the POS for an F150.:) Oh, and if I lived in the rust belt I would never ever think about a Japanese car and made in China?? Not likely:banghead
 
GlobalRider said:
Sure I'll buy a car from the big 3. All they have to do is give it to me and if I feel I got 10 to 15 years of trouble free service from it, I'll pay them for it then. QUOTE]

It's a safe bet you're not holding BMW and Honda to those terms. As long as you maintain such different standards, it's apparent which end of your signature line quote you fall under.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.....A. Einstein
Click to expand...
 
26667 said:
"German engineering, Swiss innovation, American nothing."

- Adversting slogan used on a billboard in South Africa by Daimler to promote its Smart "forfour" compact car.
Click to expand...

But wasn't there a country somewhere that invented the light bulb, cotton gin, telephone, assembly line, etc. Didn't this same country walk on the moon and have something to do with the Atomic Bomb. I might have been dreaming.
 
osbornk said:
But wasn't there a country somewhere that invented the light bulb, cotton gin, telephone, assembly line, etc. Didn't this same country walk on the moon and have something to do with the Atomic Bomb. I might have been dreaming.
Click to expand...

Telephone, Canada.

Splitting the Atom was impressive, but its end use wasn't. I would actually think that is a matter of national shame.

The big Detroit Three, will continue to spiral until the UAW and CAW are disbanded. I do not agree with, or support my governments decision to give money to the Auto Industry here in Canada. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have no chance of turning operations profitable, AND have a fighting chance at sustainability. I'm afraid the Japanese own the modern Auto market. I actually just ordered a Ford F250, not because I want to support that company, but because Toyota doesn't yet have a 3/4 ton truck. You can bet though, when Toyota announces their throwing a hat in that market segment the end of GM and Ford is certain. I know of a few contractors that have switched to the Tundra; I've yet to hear one complain. That's a lie, I actually did hear my Duct Work guy complain that he no longer gets to have those unexpected maintenance issues pop-up. Said he missed seeing the mechanic.

After owning Japanese (built in Canada and the US), cars and trucks I can honestly say I have no idea why people, other then not finding a vehicle for a specific problem; snow plowing in my case, would even consider buying a GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Jap cars built here in N.A. buy Americans (Canadians) are still of a better level of quality then American cars and trucks built in America (Canada), by the UAW and CAW. IMHO.

IMHO, the commonality to the domestic auto maker is the Union. Personally, I always try to buy non union products whenever possible.
 
Last edited:
26667 said:
"German engineering, Swiss innovation, American nothing."

- Adversting slogan used on a billboard in South Africa by Daimler to promote its Smart "forfour" compact car.
Click to expand...

It should read..."German engineering, Swiss innovation, American money"

Easy :german
 
If you want to debate the "cost per mile" or the "cost over the life of the vehicle", the secret isn't whether you buy foriegn vs. domestic, it's whether you buy new vs. used.

At the risk of offending many, I think you're outta your mind to buy a brand new car.

I've owned both foriegn and domestic cars. I had one Chevy that was an absolute nightmare and a Toyota Camry that surprised me by being less than stellar.

:dunno

Tom
 
Bell a Canadian, not really.

Bell was from Scotland, moved to Canada and was living in the U.S. when he invented the telephone. He became a naturalized citizen of the United States who said,"I am not one of those hyphenated Americans who claim allegiance to two countries." So I guess he was a Scott who moved with his family to Canada and then moved to the United States where he worked in Boston, returning to Canada for the summers. Maybe we should just go with North American.



DwayneH said:
Telephone, Canada.

Splitting the Atom was impressive, but its end use wasn't. I would actually think that is a matter of national shame.

The big Detroit Three, will continue to spiral until the UAW and CAW are disbanded. I do not agree with, or support my governments decision to give money to the Auto Industry here in Canada. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have no chance of turning operations profitable, AND have a fighting chance at sustainability. I'm afraid the Japanese own the modern Auto market. I actually just ordered a Ford F250, not because I want to support that company, but because Toyota doesn't yet have a 3/4 ton truck. You can bet though, when Toyota announces their throwing a hat in that market segment the end of GM and Ford is certain. I know of a few contractors that have switched to the Tundra; I've yet to hear one complain. That's a lie, I actually did hear my Duct Work guy complain that he no longer gets to have those unexpected maintenance issues pop-up. Said he missed seeing the mechanic.

After owning Japanese (built in Canada and the US), cars and trucks I can honestly say I have no idea why people, other then not finding a vehicle for a specific problem; snow plowing in my case, would even consider buying a GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Jap cars built here in N.A. buy Americans (Canadians) are still of a better level of quality then American cars and trucks built in America (Canada), by the UAW and CAW. IMHO.

IMHO, the commonality to the domestic auto maker is the Union, Personally, I always try to buy non union products whenever possible.
.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DwayneH said:
Telephone, Canada.
Splitting the Atom was impressive, but its end use wasn't. I would actually think that is a matter of national shame. QUOTE]

I don't think so. It ended a nasty war that would of killed millions more, some Canadian, and while not ending war, it has keep the scale of them down. Also Nuclear energy has provided millions with a cheap and clean source of energy that will last until these other non-pollution sources of power come on-line.
Click to expand...
 
Ozonkiller said:
If you want to debate the "cost per mile" or the "cost over the life of the vehicle", the secret isn't whether you buy foriegn vs. domestic, it's whether you buy new vs. used.

At the risk of offending many, I think you're outta your mind to buy a brand new car.
Tom
Click to expand...

You're exactly right. That's what makes domestics a lower cost to own if you select the right vehicle. A GM or Ford product is far cheaper to buy used than a similar Toyota or Honda. The domestics are not anything like the poor quality products of the 80s and early to mid 90s. Late model Ford and GM products are a very durable vehicle and the parts and labor are generally cheaper than a comparable Japanese product.

Buying new makes the comparison closer but buying new makes a big difference. I paid just over half of MSRP for my 08 Impala and the Toyotas and Hondas were far more expensive and harder to find.
 
PaperBoy said:
Bell was from Scotland, moved to Canada and was living in the U.S. when he invented the telephone. He became a naturalized citizen of the United States who said,"I am not one of those hyphenated Americans who claim allegiance to two countries." So I guess he was a Scott who moved with his family to Canada and then moved to the United States where he worked in Boston, returning to Canada for the summers. Maybe we should just go with North American.
Click to expand...

Done. We're all North American (Canadian, US), so that is fair.
 
r11rs94 said:
DwayneH said:
Telephone, Canada.
Splitting the Atom was impressive, but its end use wasn't. I would actually think that is a matter of national shame. QUOTE]

I don't think so. It ended a nasty war that would of killed millions more, some Canadian, and while not ending war, it has keep the scale of them down. Also Nuclear energy has provided millions with a cheap and clean source of energy that will last until these other non-pollution sources of power come on-line.
Click to expand...

Don't misunderstand; the splitting of the Atom was impressive, and although Nuclear Energy is not a good alternative, it's still the only viable option in the absence of Hydro stations.
Click to expand...
 
DwayneH said:
Splitting the Atom was impressive, but its end use wasn't. I would actually think that is a matter of national shame.
Click to expand...

Dwayne,

The rest of your post was very thoughtful and well written. This one line however, is for a more tavern oriented debate, in my mind. We can discuss the morality of wartime decisions (in a war the Germans and Japanese started, the Swiss profitted illegally and unethically from, while the South Africans subjugated and oppressed their own native population) over there... Keeping in mind of course that we're free to discuss it in the first place, exist to discuss it in the second (we wouldn't, if our fathers and grandfathers would have been among the up to one million casualties now considered likely from an invasion of Japan), and there would be no Japanese left to build cars if they had fought to the last man and/or commit suicide rather than surrender defending the home islands, as they had been doing up to that point. Our country is far from perfect and hasn't always done the right thing, but there is no right thing in war... Only lesser wrongs.

I'm a veteran and a patriot. I respect your opinion and your right to share it, though I personally disagree with it.

Bob
 
108625 said:
Dwayne,

The rest of your post was very thoughtful and well written. This one line however, is for a more tavern oriented debate, in my mind. We can discuss the morality of wartime decisions (in a war the Germans and Japanese started, the Swiss profitted illegally and unethically from, while the South Africans subjugated and oppressed their own native population) over there... Keeping in mind of course that we're free to discuss it in the first place, exist to discuss it in the second (we wouldn't, if our fathers and grandfathers would have been among the up to one million casualties now considered likely from an invasion of Japan), and there would be no Japanese left to build cars if they had fought to the last man and/or commit suicide rather than surrender defending the home islands, as they had been doing up to that point. Our country is far from perfect and hasn't always done the right thing, but there is no right thing in war... Only lesser wrongs.

I'm a veteran and a patriot. I respect your opinion and your right to share it, though I personally disagree with it.

Bob
Click to expand...

Bob, I too served, and although I don't doubt the validity of using whatever means possible to end the war, at that time (Hind-site is always 20/20), I don't think it is anything to be proud of. My country has also done many questionable things, so I'm not sitting on an ivory tower. Actually a couple of weeks ago, I welcomed back an old friend returning from Afghanistan. His hearse was the 98th since we went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.
 
DwayneH said:
Bob, I too served, and although I don't doubt the validity of using whatever means possible to end the war, at that time (Hind-site is always 20/20), I don't think it is anything to be proud of. My country has also done many questionable things, so I'm not sitting on an ivory tower. Actually a couple of weeks ago, I welcomed back an old friend returning from Afghanistan. His hearse was the 98th since we went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.
Click to expand...

I served in Afghanistan, and saluted the first casket to have the red maple leaf draped over it, along with many stars and stripes, and some union jacks as well.
Do I regret that every one of those lives was lost because nobody else could come up with a better way of solving problems? Absolutely.
Do I regret that, lacking a better way, we did our duty there? Not for a moment.

So here's to finding a better way, and until then, to those who have pay for our inability to come up with it.
 
DwayneH said:
Telephone, Canada.


Personally, I always try to buy non union products whenever possible.
Click to expand...

To each his own. I will always buy union made with an American brand when possible. In my country, unions have moved our society forward in many ways. Women receive equal pay for equal work when they have union representation. Blacks and other minorities have gained some equality thru the no discrimination clauses in union contracts. And all workers have benefited from what unions negotiated for them--health and safety, vacations with pay, health insurance, sick days--name a benefit and unions probably negotiated it.
 
lightning said:
To each his own. I will always buy union made with an American brand when possible. In my country, unions have moved our society forward in many ways. Women receive equal pay for equal work when they have union representation. Blacks and other minorities have gained some equality thru the no discrimination clauses in union contracts. And all workers have benefited from what unions negotiated for them--health and safety, vacations with pay, health insurance, sick days--name a benefit and unions probably negotiated it.
Click to expand...

I think you will find equal pay and non-descrimination has nothing to do with unions but it is federal law. Unions once had a very important place in this country but they overplayed their hand to the point that they destroy industries and cause many people to lose jobs. The steel industry, airline industry, the American auto industry are good examples of what unions can do to you.

Being a right to work state, Virginia has been helped by the work of unions. Much of our industry came here to avoid or get away from unions. They pay fairly and treat their employees well.

We have one local industry that was operating in Oregon about 35 years ago. The employees threated to vote in a union and the owner told them that if they did so, he would leave. They did and he did. The thousands of jobs and hundreds of million dollars he brought here have been very helpful to our economy and people.
 
108625 said:
I served in Afghanistan, and saluted the first casket to have the red maple leaf draped over it, along with many stars and stripes, and some union jacks as well.
Do I regret that every one of those lives was lost because nobody else could come up with a better way of solving problems? Absolutely.
Do I regret that, lacking a better way, we did our duty there? Not for a moment.

So here's to finding a better way, and until then, to those who have pay for our inability to come up with it.
Click to expand...

I will always support what our (US, CDN, UK), troops are doing overseas. I don't like that they are there, although doing an excellent job, I would hate to have us leave, after losing so many. On the other hand I don't want them to stay and lose more soldiers in a never-ending war. What do you do? I have no problem with someone not supporting the war, but for those who publicly attack our (US, CDN, UK), soldiers....that just pisses me off.


P.S. I still won't buy Union if I have a non-Union alternative.
 
UAW overdid it?

osbornk said:
I think you will find equal pay and non-descrimination has nothing to do with unions but it is federal law. Unions once had a very important place in this country but they overplayed their hand to the point that they destroy industries and cause many people to lose jobs.
Click to expand...

I think the Union deserves some credit for pushing the Feds to approve such legistration but agree they've overplayed their hand. I absolutely support decent wages and the need for a strong middle class. One issue is the disparity in Union representation. Back in the day, working through college I was part of a union that didn't do crap other than collect my dues. On the other hand you have some electrical unions and the UAW that went way overboard to the point of being counter productive and giving labor a bad rap.

What gets me in this debate is the ficticious $70+/hr wage bandied about and narrow focus on labor as if that's the main reason for the big 3 deabacles, especially since wages are < 10% of the cost. What about white collar compensation, especially at the very top? Marketing and design engineers? I read somewhere an 'apples to apples' comparison shows Detroit workers making around $5-$7/hr more than the transplant factories. (not clear if that accounted for the tax subsidies the southern states gave to incentivize transplant factories .. probably didn't)

Labor is just one part of the problem and even though I'm generally not supportive of the UAW, they've made concessions and are being made scapegoats.
 
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