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Thread: Warranty Claim Denied By BMW

  1. #106

    Cool From Someone Who Is Not An Attorney

    Quote Originally Posted by BeemerMike View Post
    Sorry if it sounds smug. No, I do not work for BMW, but I am an attorney, so I have some familiarity with contract law.

    There are plenty of posts indicating BMW's previous written communications on this issue. It all hinges on how BMW interprets "SF or better". "Better" to them may not be the same as "better" to you. If you have a failure that involves lubrication, what "better" means to BMW is going to be the most important factor to obtaining easy warranty resolution without having to resort to legal action to see if your "better" is correct.

    I and other have tried to explain this situation, and the easy way to avoid any contractual warranty issues with BMW during the warranty period. I think we are just tired of arguing about it, and are not trying to win any argument. It's your motorcycle. All we are saying is if you think you have the right answer, and want to save a few bucks, then use whatever oil you want to use. That's all we are saying.
    Hey Mike...with respect....your discussion of what BMW considers an oil which is "SF or better" sound very much like "what is the meaning of is"...while I have slept at a Holiday Inn I do not consider myself an authority on oil grades...but in the chronological progression of oil designations I think it is a safe assumption for a "reasonable and prudent" person that each successive grade meets and exceeds the previous grades...


    And yes we are all weary of beating this topic up....sadly as I noted BMW sucks when it comes to offering BMW owners concrete, concise and definitive information. We have to dig and hunt and make WAGs based on speculative constructs.

    But you know what...I enjoy the ---- out of riding my GSA!
    Phil
    ========
    "In Wallowas"
    ========
    2007 R1200GS Adventure

  2. #107
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TourNut View Post
    Those who want to go back to Honda , or possibly other Japanese brands:
    I switched from Honda in favor of BMW this year.
    The last 2 Hondas I bought new, 1991 GoldWing 1500SE and 2005 Shadow Aero 750, BOTH had wheel corrosion issues;
    The road bikes with cast aluminum wheels have NO protection on them since 1988 - Raw aluminum , not anodized, not clear coated, suseptable to water and other road chemicals , even brake pad dust !
    Just helped a friend clean up his 2008 GL1800 wheels - took 2 guys 3 hours to make them look halfway original. I know what you speak of........
    Honda must not give a s_it.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    Need your R11xx Hall sensor rewired? PM me.

  3. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
    Hey Mike...with respect....your discussion of what BMW considers an oil which is "SF or better" sound very much like "what is the meaning of is"...while I have slept at a Holiday Inn I do not consider myself an authority on oil grades...but in the chronological progression of oil designations I think it is a safe assumption for a "reasonable and prudent" person that each successive grade meets and exceeds the previous grades...


    And yes we are all weary of beating this topic up....sadly as I noted BMW sucks when it comes to offering BMW owners concrete, concise and definitive information. We have to dig and hunt and make WAGs based on speculative constructs.

    But you know what...I enjoy the ---- out of riding my GSA!
    This oil thing, in this thread, comes down to one group saying "use SG-SH oil and you'll not have any warranty problems." This is true, as far as it goes. The other group says "my manual says (insert what your manual says here)." Though not mutually exclusive, the two statements are not exactly congruent. Those who imply only SG-SH oil is acceptable are incorrect, at least for the manual for my bike, which, as we now are all tired of reading, says, "SF or better." SF oil does NOT meet the SG-SH specification, by the way.

    The API web site clearly states that each service category includes the performance properties of each earlier category (you can read it yourself: http://www.api.org/certifications/en...Oil_Guide.pdf).

    Following is a distillation of what I have learned in researching this issue:

    Oil which meets ONLY the SG-SH classication specifications is no longer marketed for automotive use, due to the high levels of ZDDP additive, which can (and will) destroy a catalytic converter in a car (or motorcycle). Since 1996, when the EPA mandated 8-year/80,000 mile emissions warranties, specifically including catalytic converters (it is now 15 years/150,000 miles for California), oil companies have labored to reduce ZDDP levels, under pressure from auto companies (duh). Zinc and phosphorus in ZDDP are the culprits. My 2006 BMW emissions equipment warranty was five years or 18,700 miles. SF, SG, and SH oils (perhaps some later classifications, as well), with high zinc and phosphorus levels, provide excellent antiwear properties, and will almost certainly not destroy the catalytic converter within the warranty period. The oils sold with "motorcycle" on them are very popular among classic car enthusiasts, as they don't worry about catalytic converters, and ZDDP IS a very effective additive. The oil companies manage to sell the oil to those who can use it in their vehicles without endangering their warranties, and the companies avoid liability from auto owners whose emissions warranties WOULD be endangered. Excellent.

    Note: we're talking about miniscule differences, i.e. two hundredths of a percent of phosphorus between SG and SJ oil. That's 200 parts per million difference (although the SG oil has 20% more Ph than the SJ, if you like percentages better than actual numbers).

    My conclusion, for my use, is that SG-SH oil will certainly protect my warranty, but will in the long run destroy the effectiveness of my catalytic converter. I see that as a bad thing. I like the idea of lowering air pollution. My owner's manual lets me choose any oil which meets the API SF classification, and my warranty will remain in effect. API charts show that SL, SJ and SM meet that classification. I am currently using SJ oil in my engine, but have no qualms about using SL or the new SM oils, either regarding the efficacy of the lubricants or the status of my warranty coverage. I recommend you do your own research regarding which API classification is acceptable in your owner's manual, then decide for yourself whether you're going to worry about the meaning of "better" or the opinions of others, or worry about the cost of a catalytic converter ruined by high concentrations of zinc and phosporus.

    I am not: a chemist; an attorney; an employee of BMW; or an expert on the subject of oil. I am, however, capable of researching facts, aided greatly by the Great Googleweb, and endeavor to present those facts as clearly as possible in posts such as these. I try to avoid offering opinions unless I clearly state same. I hope you find this information useful as a starting point for deciding what's right for your engine.

  4. #109
    seniorasi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenwald View Post
    DUH!

    Rode the Smokies in '07 with a co-worker on his Yamaha FJR1300 - not impressed.

    Fellow Motor Officer announced he is trading in his Triumph Sprint ST for an R1200GS in Spring.

    My son ('07 Honda ST1300) and I occasionally swap mounts on long rides.....I end up wanting my R1200RT back......he resists giving it up.

    Jury still out on the new Concours, but three recalls already this year. Not good.

    Careful what you wish for.
    How many recalls would BMW have per year if they WERE honest about what are significant failures in their product? At least the Japs are honest about it. There is only one reason I'm still riding the airhead and not a new GS. Think about it.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorasi View Post
    At least the Japs are honest about it.
    Can you contribute to a discussion without using a racial slur?

  6. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorasi View Post
    How many recalls would BMW have per year if they WERE honest about what are significant failures in their product?
    Likely about the same number of recalls they currently have outstanding.

    Motor vehicle recalls are all about safety. If a problem is not safety related there will likely be no recall. Specifically, things that upset owners and get them talking about lemon laws rarely have anything to do with recalls.

    Recalls in the US are under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). If you think you have a safety issue report it to the NHTSA. If enough people do so the NHTSA may compel the manufactured to issue a recall. Since that doesn't seemed to happen much either few are reporting things to the NHTSA or the defects being reported are not seen as safety issues.

    Oh, and honesty has nothing to do with it.

  7. #112
    seniorasi
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonmill View Post
    Can you contribute to a discussion without using a racial slur?
    That statement is really unfair and totally uncalled for.

  8. #113
    seniorasi
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    Quote Originally Posted by marchyman View Post
    Likely about the same number of recalls they currently have outstanding.

    Motor vehicle recalls are all about safety. If a problem is not safety related there will likely be no recall. Specifically, things that upset owners and get them talking about lemon laws rarely have anything to do with recalls.

    Recalls in the US are under the jurisdiction of the Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). If you think you have a safety issue report it to the NHTSA. If enough people do so the NHTSA may compel the manufactured to issue a recall. Since that doesn't seemed to happen much either few are reporting things to the NHTSA or the defects being reported are not seen as safety issues.

    Oh, and honesty has nothing to do with it.
    The vast majority of your post makes complete sense. However, I feel the "Japanese" manufacturers are keen to resolve issues and maintain the reputation of reliability they have come to enjoy these many years.

  9. #114
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorasi View Post
    However, I feel the "Japanese" manufacturers are keen to resolve issues and maintain the reputation of reliability they have come to enjoy these many years.
    Try dealing with Honda Marine on warranty issues - you will get the denial just like BMW gives us
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    Need your R11xx Hall sensor rewired? PM me.

  10. #115
    Rally Rat
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorasi View Post
    That statement is really unfair and totally uncalled for.
    Agreed.

    Hope you don't get stoned for ever mentioning the 'Brits.'

  11. #116
    On the road again! R80RTJohnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorasi View Post
    How many recalls would BMW have per year if they WERE honest about what are significant failures in their product? At least the Japs are honest about it. There is only one reason I'm still riding the airhead and not a new GS. Think about it.
    BMW plays by the same rules as everyone else. How many other issues with other manufacturers do we know nothing about. BMW is as honest about their failures as everyone else. Maybe in another part of the world where BMW sells it's products do they have to report issues of concern. Different jurisdictions - different rules.

    After given consideration to the pros and cons, reviews and comments made by other owners on this forum and others I did purchase an R1200RT.

    I still have my airhead. But I would not, even on the best of days, compare it to my R1200RT. Both are different beasts. Both are fun to ride in their own way.

    If you search this and other forums you will discover that our beloved airheads do have issues (valve seats, missing cir-clips etc, starter motors, instruments etc). Different issues but still expensive to correct.

    Does BMW need to publish all recalls - Maybe. Should they take a more pro-active stance on different issues - Absolutely re: EWS.

    FWIW I've owned my airhead now for 21 years and still like to ride it.
    2008 R12RT (Blue)
    1986 R80RT (Silver)

    Member of the Loonie-Tics. MOA 292.

  12. #117
    seniorasi
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    Bottom line: I love my R100RT. I'm grateful for the forum and the opportunity to voice my opinion in a civil atmosphere. Thanks to all for that.

  13. #118
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Since this thread has beaten this particular horse to death - it's getting closed before someone makes a personal attack.

    Thanks everyone for their participation. I'd suggest a nice long ride before winter gets here.
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders
    '12 R1200R - I love this bike!

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