Awaiting announcement of the forum administrator.

oldhway · Oct 29, 2008

rocketman said:
Which leads to something I have been thinking about as folks discuss how the forum can better serve to disseminate information to the membership. In order for this to be realized it would require that the majority of members read the boards, which I suspect from looking at the data on those viewing them, is not the case and that the majority of members do NOT use them so the impact (as a means of contacting the membership) is limited by that. This is not say it can not be useful for ÔÇ£getting the word out", but it must be taken into account as to what percentage is actually being reached and should be only one but one of several means, rather than the end all and be all some may view it as.

RM

A possible different way to look at that is perhaps if we made that type of posting a matter of course, and announced it in the ON as well, more members might come here to read it. Maybe that is the type of info folks would like to see here. The old "if you build it, they will come" idea. It could be a read only sticky in the Clubhouse section. Then if someone wanted to discuss it, they could start a separate thread.

I think as we look for ways to make the forum better, recognizing it's value as a straightforward communication tool is a possibility.

statdawg · Oct 29, 2008

KBasa said:
Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match?

Watch it we are playing bull in the ring here and its my turn. Ouch that is my tail.

RIDERR1150GSADV · Oct 29, 2008

Just

oldhway · Oct 29, 2008

GregFeeler said:
My remarks were directed at Motor31's comment about Board members being too busy to post information on the forum.

As for "attacks" - there should be a level of respect among us here. Comments like in Motor31's post create an atmosphere of disrepect. That attitude isn't an moderation issue - it's just a matter of manors, and whether you are talking about issues, or just getting personal.

Greg, I absolutely agree, there is no place for attacks by anyone on this forum. As soon as the discussion goes there and it gets personal, the credibility of both sides is compromised and any possibility of resolving an issue becomes extremely remote.

That is why we should be moderating behavior and not content. Most of the possible content posted here is not what causes the problems. A lack of respect (on both sides) is causing the problems. It's the old argument, "guns don't kill people, people kill people.".

gregfeeler · Oct 29, 2008

Oldhway said:
Greg, I absolutely agree, there is no place for attacks by anyone on this forum. As soon as the discussion goes there and it gets personal, the credibility of both sides is compromised and any possibility of resolving an issue becomes extremely remote.

That is why we should be moderating behavior and not content. Most of the possible content posted here is not what causes the problems. A lack of respect (on both sides) is causing the problems. It's the old argument, "guns don't kill people, people kill people.".

I couldn't agree more.

oldhway · Oct 29, 2008

KBasa said:
Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match?

No. But right now both sides of the arguments (and it has become polarized to having sides, and that's not good) have become hyper sensitive and are feeling attacked. Neither group feels like they are being listened to, and both groups to some degree are right.

Maybe it's time to stop discussing all the symptomatic stuff (this thread, the financials thread, etc) and look for the root problem.

Why is there a growing feeling of us vs them (Tom McGee's "are there 2MOAs?" question is an example) here in the forum and in the MOA at large?

I believe that is what needs to be addressed. Obviously there is a group of people who are feeling shut out of what goes on in the club, and there is also a group of hard working, well meaning volunteers who are feeling attacked.

Why?

rocketman · Oct 29, 2008

Oldhway said:
A possible different way to look at that is perhaps if we made that type of posting a matter of course, and announced it in the ON as well, more members might come here to read it. Maybe that is the type of info folks would like to see here. The old "if you build it, they will come" idea. It could be a read only sticky in the Clubhouse section. Then if someone wanted to discuss it, they could start a separate thread.

I think as we look for ways to make the forum better, recognizing it's value as a straightforward communication tool is a possibility.

I was not saying it had no value in fact quite the opposite, it most surely does have value. I was only commenting on the fact that its value must considered in terms of its current "coverage". While for many it is the preferred method of gathering information, there as still many others, and it would seem given the membership number of 40,000 compared to forum membership numbers, that it still lags behind print media. There are many who have not yet that level of comfort with this form of communication, and we need to consider those as well. in fact I think we are in agreement that it needs to be more fully utilized and your idea may well bring others here but let us not forget those that prefer print or face to face. My point was that we must arrive at a balanced approach.

RM

oldhway · Oct 29, 2008

rocketman said:
I was not saying it had no value in fact quite the opposite, it most surely does have value. I was only commenting on the fact that its value must considered in terms of its current "coverage". While for many it is the preferred method of gathering information, there as still many others, and it would seem given the membership number of 40,000 compared to forum membership numbers, that it still lags behind print media. There are many who have not yet that level of comfort with this form of communication, and we need to consider those as well. in fact I think we are in agreement that it needs to be more fully utilized and your idea may well bring others here but let us not forget those that prefer print or face to face. My point was that we must arrive at a balanced approach.

RM

Absolutely right. We have many great tools available and all can be useful.

rob nye · Oct 29, 2008

tommcgee said:
So we have two BMW MOAs.

Apparently there are some forum users who might feel that way.

They are wrong and if anything part of the problem if there even is one.

rocketman · Oct 29, 2008

KBasa said:
Man.

Does every thread have to turn into a wrestling match?

Its human nature, with every new form of two way commutation there is a “learning curve” so to speak as to the formation of proper etiquette and because of the rate at which this medium has grown (i.e. the internet and information technology in general) I don’t think we, as a society have quite caught up to it yet. Never before has any communication medium spread so quickly and so far.
The other issue is one that has often been discussed; namely, simply being hidden behind an impersonal machine has insulated us from the emotional restrictions normally brought on by direct contact, its easier to shout insults from across the room where there is an easy escape route than to accuse from arms length. Even a large group tends to be more civil “in person” than what is often the case on the net. I do believe we will in time learn to be more civil and will arrive at that point where the same level of civility will exist within this medium as does in society in general, perhaps that is one of the roles that the new generation will come to define. It will certainly be a challenge! In the meantime we must simply persevere and exercise caution in how we conduct ourselves.

RM

oldhway · Oct 29, 2008

robnye said:
Apparently there are some forum users who might feel that way.

They are wrong and if anything part of the problem if there even is one.

Actually Rob, I think in some ways, they are not wrong. For many members, especially newer members, this forum is the face ot the MOA. They don't know the club that grew without the internet. For others, the ON magazine is the face of the MOA, and for others, it is simply a BMW rider/MOA members they have met.

While there is only one BMWMOA in fact, there are at least 3 different perceptions of it that are somewhat disparate. And they appear to be having a problem understanding one another. And that is the root of the problem (who's existance is proven by this thread).

I don't think the question is who is right or wrong or at fault, the question is how to reconcile the groups.

That belief, I guess, makes me part of the problem. :blush

oldhway · Oct 29, 2008

rocketman said:
Its human nature, with every new form of two way commutation there is a ÔÇ£learning curveÔÇØ so to speak as to the formation of proper etiquette and because of the rate at which this medium has grown (i.e. the internet and information technology in general) I donÔÇÖt think we, as a society have quite caught up to it yet. Never before has any communication medium spread so quickly and so far.
The other issue is one that has often been discussed; namely, simply being hidden behind an impersonal machine has insulated us from the emotional restrictions normally brought on by direct contact, its easier to shout insults from across the room where there is an easy escape route than to accuse from arms length. Even a large group tends to be more civil ÔÇ£in personÔÇØ than what is often the case on the net. I do believe we will in time learn to be more civil and will arrive at that point where the same level of civility will exist within this medium as does in society in general, perhaps that is one of the roles that the new generation will come to define. It will certainly be a challenge! In the meantime we must simply persevere and exercise caution in how we conduct ourselves.

RM

Grasshopper, where do you find such great wisdom?

Well said.

rocketman · Oct 29, 2008

Oldhway said:
Grasshopper, where do you find such great wisdom?

Well said.

Grasshopper? Grasshopper? Grasshopper???
Why you young whippersnapper (you ARE young right?) I ought to....

come over here and say that to my face...

no, wait you can't...we haven't perfected telleportation yet.....

never mind, as you were (or weren't as the case may be, maybe? :dunno

)

RM

redclfco · Oct 29, 2008

I step out to work and look what happens

chips on shoulders
due to swept under the rug sig lines
lead to
boxing matches
flying electronic fists
seperating the dots and dashes and bits
with each swing
through the electronic air.

What a flurry of bitch slaps
of sucker punches
over nothing
other than real time
versus latent time
misunderstood time
wow

We all should go over to
jomama
we would fit right in

Just my opinion, I thought the thread was a welcome thread to our new admin guy
so I straightened up my tie and put on a freash suit'
which is hard to do when your
a cockroach!
I hope we all (including me) have a good rest of the day

red

rocketman · Oct 29, 2008

redclfco said:
chips on shoulders
due to swept under the rug sig lines
lead to
boxing matches
flying electronic fists
seperating the dots and dashes and bits
with each swing
through the electronic air.

What a flurry of bitch slaps
of sucker punches
over nothing
other than real time
versus latent time
misunderstood time
wow

We all should go over to
jomama
we would fit right in

Just my opinion, I thought the thread was a welcome thread to our new admin guy
so I straightened up my tie and put on a freash suit'
which is hard to do when your
a cockroach!
I hope we all (including me) have a good rest of the day

red

just think of it a introductory lesson in what he is up against! :lol

If he survives the month
ÔÇÿtwil be a surprise
If not then I 'suppose
he'll be as the dead dog lies

Angry men with nothing but time
Old men and young batting at flies
One more for the books
Then weÔÇÖll simply move on
Another one down
Another one gone!

:lol

RM
(oh, and your ties still not straight!)

mika · Oct 29, 2008

Post #9 in this thread is how the news was reported on the forum.

Some of us have projects on the forum, are taking up tasks within the organization that involve the forum and website. They have time tables for deliveries of the work product. In some case these tasks are to include contacting people with titles for various reasons. In many cases the time tables have multiple deadlines and dependencies that take place long before the announcement would ever go to print. Delays in timing of these contacts can result in delays measured in years or in killing the item altogether.

The nature of content work is different than coding a new management system properly, recruiting and filling of positions, setting budgets for hardware and the host of other very important duties in running this site. Content people often bring nothing but delay to the table of those working on these things. It may be different. It is dependant on it. Yet, for the content side to do it their tasks they need both the tools developed and provided by others and to be informed when they will be available.

Leaving the announcing of key positions on the website to the reporting of members does not meet the needs of people working to add content value to it. Reporters come to events with goals in mind. They report what they see as important to them and their readers. To leave the announcement to the whims of a member who came to see the rally site, put forward a proposal in the open session or took a weekend ride to see member friends does not meet the information needs. We are left uniformed and our efforts are denigrated by posts such as post #17.

I have incredible respects for the time and efforts and demands that are put in by people taking up various roles within the organization. I have been around long enough to realize projects may take longer than expected and often encounter obstacles that could not be anticipated when started. I am acutely aware how the nagging questions of people who will use the work product of these people can delay and frustrate those doing the work. I understand how we can come across as petty and demanding.

Please keep in mind members too are expending effort. They are planning their lives and resources in time and money and planning their efforts based on the work being done. Their families are wondering why just like yours they are putting in this time, effort and why their resources are going elsewhere. When members take up a task they believe they have the skills to do what is needed to do it and that they have something to bring to the task to give it life. The question asked more and more are not can I do it but will the system allow me to do what will be expected by the membership if I take up the task.

In this case, yes I expected more from the board and the parties involved.

tommcgee · Oct 29, 2008

robnye said:
Apparently there are some forum users who might feel that way.

They are wrong and if anything part of the problem if there even is one.

There obviously is a problem when members feel disenfranchised and then are accused of being wrong for having the feeling in the first place.

kbasa · Oct 29, 2008

Mika said:
Post #9 in this thread is how the news was reported on the forum.

Some of us have projects on the forum, are taking up tasks within the organization that involve the forum and website. They have time tables for deliveries of the work product. In some case these tasks are to include contacting people with titles for various reasons. In many cases the time tables have multiple deadlines and dependencies that take place long before the announcement would ever go to print. Delays in timing of these contacts can result in delays measured in years or in killing the item altogether.

The nature of content work is different than coding a new management system properly, recruiting and filling of positions, setting budgets for hardware and the host of other very important duties in running this site. Content people often bring nothing but delay to the table of those working on these things. It may be different. It is dependant on it. Yet, for the content side to do it their tasks they need both the tools developed and provided by others and to be informed when they will be available.

Leaving the announcing of key positions on the website to the reporting of members does not meet the needs of people working to add content value to it. Reporters come to events with goals in mind. They report what they see as important to them and their readers. To leave the announcement to the whims of a member who came to see the rally site, put forward a proposal in the open session or took a weekend ride to see member friends does not meet the information needs. We are left uniformed and our efforts are denigrated by posts such as post #17.

I have incredible respects for the time and efforts and demands that are put in by people taking up various roles within the organization. I have been around long enough to realize projects may take longer than expected and often encounter obstacles that could not be anticipated when started. I am acutely aware how the nagging questions of people who will use the work product of these people can delay and frustrate those doing the work. I understand how we can come across as petty and demanding.

Please keep in mind members too are expending effort. They are planning their lives and resources in time and money and planning their efforts based on the work being done. Their families are wondering why just like yours they are putting in this time, effort and why their resources are going elsewhere. When members take up a task they believe they have the skills to do what is needed to do it and that they have something to bring to the task to give it life. The question asked more and more are not can I do it but will the system allow me to do what will be expected by the membership if I take up the task.

In this case, yes I expected more from the board and the parties involved.

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand your desires for more information. But the question is really whether the timeline for delivery of information from the board meeting or related decisions really needs to be in everybody's hands within a day (which seems to be the sentiment I'm reading here).

I can understand this thirst, but I'd like to also point out that the folks that were at the BoD meeting and part of the decision were away from home for three or four days and may need some time to catch up with their home life, their professional life and such before they can get back to work on fashioning an announcement for the membership.

Just like everybody else, board members have tasks to accomplish outside the MOA and so far, this week alone, since Monday, I've probably got a solid 8 to 12 hours invested - just since I got home. This doesn't include the 60+ hours I and the majority of board members and paid staff put into it over the weekend.

Consider that not so long ago, it would have taken about 60 days for notice to be printed in ON for the general membership. We have considerably shortened that cycle via the web, but if the expectation is that the board is going to make two announcements, one message meeting what seems to be an expectation of instant notification and another that fits the print media schedule, I don't know that it's realistic. The question is whether anyone is served by having notification of such decisions within 24 hours of them being made beyond those that are curious. Will waiting a week really have any kind of significant impact on the membership experience? I don't believe so.

It sounds like the desire is that web notifications will show up within a day or so of action and that print notifications will show up in the next available BMW MOA ON. The difficulty I have with splitting announcements is whether we are, by such action, splitting the club in two - those that read the web site and those that don't.

I have some concerns about essentially providing information twice to two different groups and wonder whether the better course isn't just to roll it all into ON and call it a day. This will, of course, elicit cries of "black helicopter" and such from those that can't wait, but why should one group get preferential treatment? Is it preferential treatment?

But please, can we just get a little bit of slack here? We've got jobs, families and responsibilities beyond the MOA and sometimes, particularly after leaving those alone for 3 or 4 days, we need to catch up elsewhere in our lives for a bit before we can give the MOA our full attention again.

Thanks.

MOTOR31 · Oct 29, 2008

GregFeeler said:
I would just like to point out that if a Board member made a comment like this about anyone else on this forum he or she would be accused of badgering or demeaning a member. I think we'd all do better to keep such "clever" comments to ourselves and out of our posts.

There is a expectation here - at least by some - that it's the *responsibly* of someone in the organization to post any and every detail when something happens in real time. If "we" don't meet those expectations then we're fair game for attacks and reckless accusations. This thread was started on the 27th. I know that I spent all day Sunday traveling back from the Board meeting and didn't get home until 6:45pm local time. I worked all day Monday and have been sick with a cold since then.

What is announced in Open Session at a Board meeting is public information and can be passed along by anyone. I fully support getting information out quickly and Darrel's appointment is very good news. It's just not the job of anyone on the Board to report here about it. When Dave asked how many people at the meeting used the forum, about twenty people raised their hands.

Just an FYI for you here. The post of mine you quoted was made tongue in cheek and aimed at Sibud, not at you. The "smileys" were chosen to project that intent since there is no way to see other non verbal communication on the board. Sibud and I have traded good natured jabs at each other before and I believe we both know when each others leg is being pulled. If you inferred anything else from it, even though I used a previously listed justification for non BoD participation on the forum as a part of the jib, that is your inference. Perhaps because you are not feeling well on top of being busy. Hope you feel better soon.

testinglogin · Oct 29, 2008

KBasa said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I understand your desires for more information. But the question is really whether the timeline for delivery of information from the board meeting or related decisions really needs to be in everybody's hands within a day (which seems to be the sentiment I'm reading here).

I can understand this thirst, but I'd like to also point out that the folks that were at the BoD meeting and part of the decision were away from home for three or four days and may need some time to catch up with their home life, their professional life and such before they can get back to work on fashioning an announcement for the membership.

Just like everybody else, board members have tasks to accomplish outside the MOA and so far, this week alone, since Monday, I've probably got a solid 8 to 12 hours invested - just since I got home. This doesn't include the 60+ hours I and the majority of board members and paid staff put into it over the weekend.

Consider that not so long ago, it would have taken about 60 days for notice to be printed in ON for the general membership. We have considerably shortened that cycle via the web, but if the expectation is that the board is going to make two announcements, one message meeting what seems to be an expectation of instant notification and another that fits the print media schedule, I don't know that it's realistic. The question is whether anyone is served by having notification of such decisions within 24 hours of them being made beyond those that are curious. Will waiting a week really have any kind of significant impact on the membership experience? I don't believe so.

It sounds like the desire is that web notifications will show up within a day or so of action and that print notifications will show up in the next available BMW MOA ON. The difficulty I have with splitting announcements is whether we are, by such action, splitting the club in two - those that read the web site and those that don't.

I have some concerns about essentially providing information twice to two different groups and wonder whether the better course isn't just to roll it all into ON and call it a day. This will, of course, elicit cries of "black helicopter" and such from those that can't wait, but why should one group get preferential treatment? Is it preferential treatment?

But please, can we just get a little bit of slack here? We've got jobs, families and responsibilities beyond the MOA and sometimes, particularly after leaving those alone for 3 or 4 days, we need to catch up elsewhere in our lives for a bit before we can give the MOA our full attention again.

Thanks.

Dave,

I fully understand some amount of delay in getting information out after a board meeting when you consider flights back home, catching up on personal issues, etc. No argument there.

One thing I do have a concern about is there seems to be a reluctance to use the forum for ANY communication. I mean no offense to anyone in the club, but we seem to be stuck in this "old world" style of communication. A business with 40000 customers would REALLY struggle without a decent website for communications these days. The club needs to focus on embracing technology and use it to provide better services to our members and in turn, to help grow our membership. I've been on the internet since pre-graphical web days and I didn't initially join the MOA because when I visited the site it was pretty plain and lacked information that would draw me in. Since that first visit I've made, we have made some good steps in the right direction with things like online rally registration and getting the word out about upcoming events. The MOA newsletter that gets e-mailed out is a great thing, as well. I also know we're on the edge of a website re-design, which will include a content management system that should make adding content substantially easier. So why not go further - start posting meeting minutes - record the open sessions (even just audio) and allow people to listen to them if they want to. That would cut down on a lot of "what happened at the meeting" because you could always say "why don't you go listen to the last meeting, posted on the website"? I don't see any downsides to providing MORE information to the membership. If anything I can see it cutting down on these "the board doesn't want to communicate" accusations that seem to come up every so often.

We should work on giving the membership the power to be informed - maybe we'll see higher voter turnout at election time. We should mention the forum MORE in the ON. I know it gets mentioned here and there on occasion, but why not take out a 1-page "ad" for ourselves to drum up interest in the forum? Run it for a few months and see if our 'hits' and forum membership numbers go up? Instead of just having a dealership hand out a few free issues of the "ON", make sure to include something about the forum so when someone gets a new bike they have somewhere to go for two-way communication with like-minded individuals.

Just some thoughts. I frequently get a bit frustrated that we're moving very slowly on the forum side of things. Changes happen but at a glacial rate. I'm all for being careful, but this is a "live" medium - it's easy to change the things that don't work out.

Awaiting announcement of the forum administrator.

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