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Thread: Another one bites the dust

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArthurKnowles View Post
    I recall the thread, but once again "out of warrenty" means "out of warrenty". There is no obligation for the previous owner or manufacturer to provide any support for it. Unless they choose to do so.

    I'll probably get a lot of flak for that, but it's honestly the way I feel about it. When you buy used, you are buying a pig in a poke (i.e. unknown state & status). That means, you take your chances.

    I'e had this same type of issue bite me before on buying used cars. Like suddently having to buy a replacement transmission because the original failed withiont a few hundred miles. Same with clutches. You buy used, you are the warrenty. You have to fix whatever breaks. Period. Regardless of how you feel about the design of the product, you are the responsible party. Complaining about it, or whining about it, isn't going to accomplish much. Persuing legal alternatives might, but that's about it.

    Best you can do in such a circumstance is to get the dealer to help. They have a lot more clout with the manufacturer than you do. But how many dealers (car or motorccyle) want to go to bat for you if you didn't buy it from them? Or if you don't use the dealer for service, why should they choose to go to bat for you? And as you know, going one on one with BMW NA isn't always going to prove successful. And in many case I understand their viewpoint completely (out of warrenty means out of warrenty - and where you get it services counts as well).
    Well, I bought my bike brand new from a dealer. Three years and 55,000 miles later I had the same failure as OI. And BMW gave me the same answer as he, Johnny, and many others have recieved....out of warranty, not going to help.

    I am in agreement with your point that out of warranty is truly out of warranty. The mfgr. has no responsibility to help the customer, unless, they actually want to develop a loyal customer base, receive positive word of mouth advertising, and grow their market share. My problem is that BMW knows there is an inherent problem in some percentage of oilheads. And if you look around, these failures are not a rarity, and I believe they will become more numerous as more miles get put on the bikes. When a mfgr. improperly designs or assembles a product, they should step up and make things right. At least if they want to be considered a reputable manufacturer. Look at Yamaha with the ticking valves on the FJR. From everything I have read, Yamaha warrantied every problem regardless of years or mileage, or warranty status. That is how I expect a reputable manufacturer to behave when faced with a QC issue. With BMW you are paying a premium to own their product. Is a BMW bike 30% to 50% better than a comparable competitors product? In terms of function, probably not. But if I pay a premium for a BMW product, I damn well expect them to be stand up people when something goes wrong on the short end of the lifecycle. And particularly when that something is a well documented failure.

    And I did pursue them in court. When I get a formal judgement against them in a few months, I'll be smiling when I either receive a check from BMWAG, or place an attachment on something of value to them. They made their decision to deny any goodwill, and accordingly, I have made my decision regarding future ownership of their products.

  2. #17
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    RE: clutch spline problem

    You go boy! I ride this same machine and hate to think of being helplessly stranded in the future. I don't use a dealer for service & if I did it would be an all day trip just to go & come back, let alone the service time & $!. If a manufacture wants the public trust on this type issue, they should cultivate it! The extremely weak fuel disconnects are a similar issue on this bike.
    I once had a 4x4 Mazda van-was the Motor Trend Car of the Year in 1990, no less. I had a torque converter failure @ 50,112k.I learned from the best tranny guy in these parts, that the part was not up to the task application. Guess if Mazda covered the repair? Guess if I'll ever buy a Mazda? I like the BMW brand(worked on the cars since 1969), but a thing like the above could cause me and others to look elsewhere...

  3. #18
    Rally Rat kreinke's Avatar
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    I've got an '04 R1150. All this talk in this thread has me seriously looking at a Bandit 1250!

    They're a pretty sturdy bike aren't they?

  4. #19
    johnnyjs1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorcyclist View Post
    Well, I bought my bike brand new from a dealer. Three years and 55,000 miles later I had the same failure as OI. And BMW gave me the same answer as he, Johnny, and many others have recieved....out of warranty, not going to help.

    I am in agreement with your point that out of warranty is truly out of warranty. The mfgr. has no responsibility to help the customer, unless, they actually want to develop a loyal customer base, receive positive word of mouth advertising, and grow their market share. My problem is that BMW knows there is an inherent problem in some percentage of oilheads. And if you look around, these failures are not a rarity, and I believe they will become more numerous as more miles get put on the bikes. When a mfgr. improperly designs or assembles a product, they should step up and make things right. At least if they want to be considered a reputable manufacturer. Look at Yamaha with the ticking valves on the FJR. From everything I have read, Yamaha warrantied every problem regardless of years or mileage, or warranty status. That is how I expect a reputable manufacturer to behave when faced with a QC issue. With BMW you are paying a premium to own their product. Is a BMW bike 30% to 50% better than a comparable competitors product? In terms of function, probably not. But if I pay a premium for a BMW product, I damn well expect them to be stand up people when something goes wrong on the short end of the lifecycle. And particularly when that something is a well documented failure.

    And I did pursue them in court. When I get a formal judgement against them in a few months, I'll be smiling when I either receive a check from BMWAG, or place an attachment on something of value to them. They made their decision to deny any goodwill, and accordingly, I have made my decision regarding future ownership of their products.
    +1,000,000
    Gonna call the dealer today and see what is going on. When I dropped the bike off, the service and sales managers said they would do everything they can to get me a favorable decision from BMWNA. But after talking to a few people who have had some extensive dealings and knowledge about this particular dealer, I'm thinking the managers were blowing smoke up my a$$. The owner...some rich guy who never owned a BMW prior to buying his dealership. Doesnt seem to care too much about customer satisfaction as long as he keeps sellin bikes(but with his attitude, wont be selling lots a bikes too much longer). So..i'm not too confident that the dealer will go to bat for me. If all this doesnt work out well for me, I honestly dont think I can/will ever own another BMW, knowing how poorly they treat their customers. Sure..I'm just one little guy, with one little bike, but eventually one little guy will turn into thousands of little guys. Maybe them BMW will take responsiblity for their crappy Q.C. regarding parts and possibly assembly. As far as warranty goes: Thousands of bikes are having the same issues after the warranty expires, you'd think BMW would address this and extend the warranty on those parts that are failing, or at least remedy the repair cost in part.

    I can do 95% of the maintenance on my bike myself, yet I chose to spend the big bucks and take it to my dealer, for the sole purpose of building a relationship with them. I guess we'll see if my extra effort and $$ is gonna pay off.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kreinke View Post
    I've got an '04 R1150. All this talk in this thread has me seriously looking at a Bandit 1250!

    They're a pretty sturdy bike aren't they?
    The Bandit is a great bike, I've ridden the 1250 and it has a smooth, powerful, and tractable motor. The handling is excellent as well, and the aftermarket is being very supportive. I especially like the Givi panniers that are available. I have seen a few touring around this year, and overall it seems they are a very nice package for a very reasonable price. And chain drive has come a long way since I last had them in the early 80's. A night and day difference.

    Your R may be fine from a maintenance standpoint, certainly many do not have the problems some of us have experienced. And if you get a good one, they tend to stay that way. But the fly in the ointment is, you never really know what you've got until something happens. And there is a certain percentage out there that will fail prematurely. If BMW gave owners some sense of support, then taking a chance and racking up the miles is not as big a deal. But that is not their MO, from what I can see. The result for me is that I lost confidence in my bike (and BMW in general) over several issues that have cropped up, the last straw being the transmission bearing/spline failure. My solution was to buy a Triumph Tiger as my primary touring bike, a decision which I do not regret.

    BMW makes a bike that has nice power and good handling characteristics, the trick is to be lucky and purchase the ones that do not have built in self destruct issues!

    Good luck in your decision!

  6. #21
    Seattle-area Rounder OfficerImpersonator's Avatar
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    If only BMW would cooperate and share their knowledge about the frequency of these well-known issues, we could have data like "only X% of final drives fail" or "only Y% of clutch hubs fail". Then we could take solace knowing the odds are in our favor.

    As it is, we have no idea what percentage of final drives or clutch hubs fail. We can only make assumptions, and when you're talking about $20,000 motorcycles and repairs that cost 10% of the price of the bike, it becomes a big deal.

    If only they would tell us what they really know instead of pretending it's not a problem or it's our fault.
    Seattle, WA
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  7. #22
    ArthurKnowles
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficerImpersonator View Post
    If only BMW would cooperate and share their knowledge about the frequency of these well-known issues, we could have data like "only X% of final drives fail" or "only Y% of clutch hubs fail". Then we could take solace knowing the odds are in our favor.

    As it is, we have no idea what percentage of final drives or clutch hubs fail. We can only make assumptions, and when you're talking about $20,000 motorcycles and repairs that cost 10% of the price of the bike, it becomes a big deal.

    If only they would tell us what they really know instead of pretending it's not a problem or it's our fault.
    I hear what you are saying. And it would be nice, but it is never going to happen. That would be a bad business practice. No corporation will ever admit to a fault like that. Best you can get with soemthing like this is the NRCHA (right initials I hope) database, or goverment intervention (like the FAA for plane crashes), etc.

    And truthfully, I understand the frustration people are having with the failures. No one likes to have to pay an out of pocket expense. Particulalry when they consider it unfair. But that's where I differ from the "frustrated" opions out there.

    I accept the legal ramifications for my purchase/actions. I honestly think everyone else that has an issue out of warrenty should do so as well and stop pissing and moaning so much about it. There is nothing wrong with asking your dealer to help intervene with BMW NA and see if they will help defray the cost of the repair. If they choose to do so, it's just good customer relations. Or in other words a gracious response. Appreciated, but not required.

    I had my concerns about my used '06 LT purchase. Heard a lot about final drives, clutchs, etc. and potential big out of pocket expenses for repairs. So, I took precautions and bought an extended warrenty. Hopefully I'll never have to use it. If I do, I hope the failure will be covered. If not, I'll just bite the bullet and pay for it myself. That doesn't mean I will not try and get my dealer to help with BMW NA to help defray the cost, but if they don't then they don't. That doesn't mean I'll stop buying or riding a BMW.

    As an FYI, I've already recoved about 3 ~ 4K in warrenty repairs on my LT under it's remaining factory warrenty. And before my warrenty expires completely, I'll take it in to my dealer for a final going over check (at my expense) to see if there is any potential problem that should be fixed (under warrenty) or documented for the future. But as it stands now, I have no complaints or issues with BMW as a corporation and nothing but praise for BMW of SD.

  8. #23
    johnnyjs1
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    Pay a premium for a BMW, they know that there were bad parts/assembly procedures....deny, deny, deny. Sure, here ya go, take another 12-20k from me for another bike. I dont think so, maybe you have $100 bills comin outta your rear, but most of us paid that premium up front, thinkin BMW put out a quality product. Triumph.....here I come

  9. #24
    ArthurKnowles
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyjs1 View Post
    Pay a premium for a BMW, they know that there were bad parts/assembly procedures....deny, deny, deny. Sure, here ya go, take another 12-20k from me for another bike. I dont think so, maybe you have $100 bills comin outta your rear, but most of us paid that premium up front, thinkin BMW put out a quality product. Triumph.....here I come
    Well maybe your conception of a premium is the problem. I didn't pay a premium for any of my BMW motorcycles. The LT is cost effective with the Goldwing (the only motorcycle you can compare it to). My RT is cost effective with the ST (again the only real comarision as all the other's are more sport than touring motorcycles in my opinion).

    I don't have $100 bills coming out my rear either, but as I pointed out previously I took precautuions with my LT purchase. It's too bad many othere's that purchased new, or while still under factory warrenty, didn't buy an extended warrenty as well. It's knowing where to spend your money that makes the difference in my opinion, not how much you spend.

    If you want to blame anyone, blame yourself! While your motorcycle was under warrenty did you get good service from your dealer? Did you get appropriate response for warrenty claims from the dealer/BMW? If you did, as I have, then you have nothing to complain about. If you did not, then that was your chance to sell your motorcycle and buy something else that would make you happy. The only legal/ethical contract you had between you and BMW exists only so long at the original warrenty period of your purchase. Anything beyond that point is simply a goodwill gesture.

    FWIW, I'e gotten better service and support from my delaer (anv though them, BMW) than any other motorcycle I have sever owned. I've gotten better service at my BMW dealer than any other manufacturer in my area for motorcycles. Inluding Honda/Yamaha/Triumph/Suzuki. Out here the other dealers sell multiple manufacturer's motorcycles and didn't offer me much of any real support. When it came time to purchase, I couldn't even arrange ride.

    When it comes to cars, it's pretty much the same thing. There is support and service, although limited when compared to BMW (Mercedes, Lexus, etc.). The honeymoon period with all dealers only seems to last so long at the original warrenty period. Or so long as you trade up to a new model as a consistent customer. That's pretty much a standard business practice.

    There are some manufacturers that will go out of their way to support their customers, but even with that you need to go through appropriate channels to get it done. It starts with dealer support. While my mother was visiting (during my kidney transplant) her Cadillac was serviced out here by a lcoal dealer and found to have had several issues. Originally Cadillac didn't want to do anytihng about the issues as the car was out of warrenty (sound familiar), but my mother had meticulous records and all service was performed by her local dealer in Florida. As a goodwill gesture (stated that way specifically by Cadillac as they did not assume any responsibility for the issues) they repaired it all (somewhere between $3K and 5K of repairs) for an out of pocket cost of $500. Her car drives like new once again.

    That's what a goodwill gesture can do for you, but it starts with the asserttion of not trying to force the manufacture to admit/acknowledge responsibility for the problem/issue. As we all know humans are imperfect and crap just happens (as the saying goes). It continues with working though the appropriate channels to work with the dealer & manufacturer. It may not always work, and if it doesn't and you still feel slighted, then you have every right to persue legal means (doesn't do much for you when out of warrenty unless you can prove it is a defective product) or as you plan to do take your money elsewhere in the future. If you do, maybe you should also reconsider your choice about an extended warrenty as well though.

  10. #25
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    BMW corporate responses to their design flaws

    Having been involved with BMW Cars and Motorcycles since the 70's my observations as to how they respond to accusations of their design flaws are as follows.
    !. They deny there is a problem
    2. They blame the customer
    3. They tell you to jump through the corporate hoops, then deny the claim.

    What has worked for people in the past is not unlike the gentleman suggested as this relates to the courts.

    In the 70's the M30 engine was experiencing head cracking problems due to excessive heat caused by the thermal reactors they used instead of catalytic converters. Literally thousands of owners complained and were blamed by BMW. A class action lawsuit was filed which the arrogant bastards could not ignore as the courts have no regard for Prussian arrogance. They had to make it right or face legal sanctions.

    Never forget that BMW AG is an extremely arrogant group and often the only way to deal with them is with an iron fist.

    Regards,

    Will
    Last edited by will3hawks; 08-10-2008 at 04:04 AM. Reason: misspelled word

  11. #26
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    Bmw

    Yep! You got it right-the BMW dealer(most any brands the same) will ride your warranty like the cash cow that it is, but when it's gone you are out of luck! Warranties are sold at a profit and no matter if it is a sweeper or a bike/car the prifit is by design coming from yours truly > If you have the $ and want to buy one , then please do so. When I sell a car out of warranty I tell the buyer if they want one they can shop for one or I will and ad it to the selling price. I don't see it as complicated, but I'm going to 1150.org and search this problem... WELL, guess whats at the top of the list on the other forum-if you have had this problem go over to the 1150.org forum under that bike and read on about this issue!!!
    I just had this thought-is MOA too "kissy faced" with BMWAG to represent owners with these issues, or why do we have a club?

  12. #27
    Registered User awagnon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kantuckid View Post
    I just had this thought-is MOA too "kissy faced" with BMWAG to represent owners with these issues, or why do we have a club?
    I agree completely, but as noted on another thread on this forum (see Final Drive Failures), BMW MOA is strictly a social club and not an advocate for it's 40,000 members. I was flamed because apparently this has been discussed "ad nauseum". I had thought the MOA was more than just a fraternity/sorority for BMW owners. But I guess I was wrong and was soundly corrected.
    Al - Ogden, Utah
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  13. #28
    johnnyjs1
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    If its just a social club, then why is there so little criticism from the higher ups of this "club" towards BMW's lack of caring about these problems that keep coming up....FD failures, Clutch spline failures, Fuel line QD's. People here seem to be afraid of standing up to BMW. Just my .02 Will BMW support for this "social club" get yanked if there is criticism being thrown around? Is BMWMOA a puppet?

  14. #29
    Registered User awagnon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyjs1 View Post
    If its just a social club, then why is there so little criticism from the higher ups of this "club" towards BMW's lack of caring about these problems that keep coming up....FD failures, Clutch spline failures, Fuel line QD's. People here seem to be afraid of standing up to BMW. Just my .02 Will BMW support for this "social club" get yanked if there is criticism being thrown around? Is BMWMOA a puppet?
    Again, I agree completely. I think that's the difference between the BMWMOA and the BMWRA, with the later group not being afraid of being critical of BMW.
    Al - Ogden, Utah
    Boxer bikes, boxer dogs, and letterboxing.
    2004 1150RT and 2018 Triumph Tiger 800xrx

  15. #30
    Registered User dancogan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by awagnon View Post
    Again, I agree completely. I think that's the difference between the BMWMOA and the BMWRA, with the later group not being afraid of being critical of BMW.
    Maybe the RA is more outspoken, but where are the results?
    Dan

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