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Another one bites the dust

OfficerImpersonator

OfficerImpersonator

Seattle-area Rounder
johnnyjs1 said:
Sent an email to BMW Motorrad USA. This is what i got in return:

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA...blah blah blah
Click to expand...

I got that email, too.

I was told to go fly a kite because of the following reasons:

Bike out of warranty. Not all work performed by official BMW dealer service department (that one really made me mad). Bike had "excessive miles" at the time (32,XXX miles at time of failure).

Luckily this happened a few months ago, so my disgust with BMW's corporate response has faded away with time. But it's plainly obvious that BMW runs away from this well-known and well-documented problem every time an owner contacts them with this issue.
 
I'll give you guys my update on my spline/clutch failure resolution here.

I filed against BMW in small claims court in CT. If they have a business presence in the state, chances are you can initiate a small claims action. Call your state's court for details.

I paid my $35.00 fee, and filed the paperwork (a one sheet form that took 5 minutes to fill out). BMW was given a deadline for a response to be submitted, and they failed to answer the charge. The court will contact me in the next few months, and I will either have a hearing with an arbiter to explain my grounds for the suit, or more likely be immediately awarded a judgement against BMW for all costs/damages.

Apparently BMW couldn't be bothered to answer a $1,400 charge, so, I'd recommend all people who have failures resulting from a poor design/QC process file similar suits. Perhaps when BMW sees the magnitude of dissatisfied customers, it will prompt them to take some ownership of the problem and not contine to stonewall the customers who expected decent service from their "legendary motorcycle."

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
 
Motorcyclist said:
I'll give you guys my update on my spline/clutch failure resolution here.

I filed against BMW in small claims court in CT. If they have a business presence in the state, chances are you can initiate a small claims action. Call your state's court for details.

I paid my $35.00 fee, and filed the paperwork (a one sheet form that took 5 minutes to fill out). BMW was given a deadline for a response to be submitted, and they failed to answer the charge. The court will contact me in the next few months, and I will either have a hearing with an arbiter to explain my grounds for the suit, or more likely be immediately awarded a judgement against BMW for all costs/damages.

Apparently BMW couldn't be bothered to answer a $1,400 charge, so, I'd recommend all people who have failures resulting from a poor design/QC process file similar suits. Perhaps when BMW sees the magnitude of dissatisfied customers, it will prompt them to take some ownership of the problem and not contine to stonewall the customers who expected decent service from their "legendary motorcycle."

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
Click to expand...

Best of luck to you. Please keep us informed as to your progress.
 
OfficerImpersonator said:
That's a concern I have as well. I'll let you know how things are in another 32,000 miles.

I've also seen it mentioned that the input shaft is about 20 mm too short. One owner posted that he had a new input shaft custom made to the "correct" length, which creates a greater surface area for the input shaft to mate with the clutch hub - and thus much more strength to the interface.

But since BMW won't even begin to discuss this situation from the manufacturer's/designer's/engineer's perspective, we're forced to grasp at straws and speculate as to what's truly going on - and how many bikes are potentially affected.
Click to expand...

That was me. It's 6mm too short not 20.
http://www.sunshinecoast.ca/bmw/InputShaft.pdf
I needed an order for 10 and never got enough interest.
Mine has been in my GS for 10,000 km now with no issues. I may pull apart this winter to get a visual, I don't know yet.
 
Spline?

I have an '04 Rockster with around 16K miles, and last month while at a BMW dealer for an oil change, the service advisor noticed a leak around the rubber seal on the shaft near the wheel axle.

Last week or so I took the bike back and asked them to also perform a throttle synch together with the leak repair. All work was performed under warranty, and they did an excellent job. All I got charged was for the throttle synch ($70).

Is this what you guys are talking about? Or are there some other failures I should be concerned? I keep reading about "spline leaks" and I'm wondering if this is what I had.

Paul

=================================================================


Vent/Change of subject - SORRY!


PS Just to vent a little bit, 2 months ago I took my bike for the 12K mile service, and other than an oil change, I don't even think they touched the valves or throttle synch. The rpm's were all off at idle and at startup, the valve chatter was still there, and I paid $600 plus! I've always taken my bike to the dealer where I purchased the bike (>130 miles away), but because of this poor service I decided to try another dealer much closer to my house (60 miles away) - well, I'm happy with them, so my next service will be performed there. I guess my dollars are not welcome there...
 
Ok. so I trailer the bike to the shop. They take it off the trailer for me. I say "You wanna hear it?" "Sure", the tech says. He puts it on the center stand, turns the key, and cranks it. Sounds pretty good for the first .5 seconds. Then the racket starts, grinding, whining, yelping groaning you name it, it was heard. I can see both techs cringing at the sound coming from my baby. The tech says to me "Follow me, I want to show you something." He leads me over to another bike in the shop. Turns it on. Same exact noises coming from it. Then he says "C'mon over here." and leads me to a GS. Turns it on, yup you guessed it, same noise. I brought the response from BMW with me to show the tech guys. Dave, the manager, told me he would see what he could do, and that it was a good idea to write them, saying making first contact and getting a reply is a start. The sales manager also told me that their Rep/Engineer that handles these things will actually be at the store on tuesday. I am willing to bet, that all the dealers that say they have never seen this before, are lying their a$$es off. My dealer had absolutely NO PROBLEM showing me and starting 2 bikes sitting there with the same issue as mine. The tech said, he would break it down, figure it out, call bmw and call me with the results and see what i wanted to do.
 
johnnyjs1 said:
Ok. so I trailer the bike to the shop. They take it off the trailer for me. I say "You wanna hear it?" "Sure", the tech says. He puts it on the center stand, turns the key, and cranks it. Sounds pretty good for the first .5 seconds. Then the racket starts, grinding, whining, yelping groaning you name it, it was heard. I can see both techs cringing at the sound coming from my baby. The tech says to me "Follow me, I want to show you something." He leads me over to another bike in the shop. Turns it on. Same exact noises coming from it. Then he says "C'mon over here." and leads me to a GS. Turns it on, yup you guessed it, same noise. I brought the response from BMW with me to show the tech guys. Dave, the manager, told me he would see what he could do, and that it was a good idea to write them, saying making first contact and getting a reply is a start. The sales manager also told me that their Rep/Engineer that handles these things will actually be at the store on tuesday. I am willing to bet, that all the dealers that say they have never seen this before, are lying their a$$es off. My dealer had absolutely NO PROBLEM showing me and starting 2 bikes sitting there with the same issue as mine. The tech said, he would break it down, figure it out, call bmw and call me with the results and see what i wanted to do.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear of your problems Johnny, but sounds like you have an honest dealer. Gives a new meaning to the often used BMW phrase "they all do that!" I hope you get some satisfaction from BMWNA, but I wouldn't hold my breath. They seem to know they have a problem, and are playing ostrich.

Please let us know what they say.

George
 
Sunfire said:
I have an '04 Rockster with around 16K miles, and last month while at a BMW dealer for an oil change, the service advisor noticed a leak around the rubber seal on the shaft near the wheel axle.

Last week or so I took the bike back and asked them to also perform a throttle synch together with the leak repair. All work was performed under warranty, and they did an excellent job. All I got charged was for the throttle synch ($70).

Is this what you guys are talking about? Or are there some other failures I should be concerned? I keep reading about "spline leaks" and I'm wondering if this is what I had.

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul - the spline failure that these guys are talking about is the clutch spline, which is located on the end of the transmission input shaft. It is between the transmission and engine. On some bikes, the clutch hub and/or spline fail, which leaves you immediately stranded. It is about an 8 hour job to get to the parts and close it up again, not counting any transmission work that needs to be done.

It sounds like your bike had a final drive input shaft seal let go, or a transmission output shaft seal. They are at either end of the driveshaft. They are a relatively easy fix, and are also fairly common leakers. I have had two R1150R's and both had those seals fail within 20,000 miles.

I assume that you have some kind of extended warranty on your Rockster?

George
 
OfficerImpersonator said:
Bike out of warranty. Not all work performed by official BMW dealer service department (that one really made me mad). Bike had "excessive miles" at the time (32,XXX miles at time of failure).
Click to expand...

I can't speak for the excessive miles, but the service work is why I tell people that have new motorcycles and a warrenty to let the BMW dealer do the work. Makes a heck of a difference if a claim needs to be filed with BMW corporate later. As you found out.

it doesn't always go that way, but there is enough leeway that BMW can always contest teh compatency of your out of BMW Dealer service. You of course can contest that charge back, however, and then it is up to BMW to prove it. If you are still in your warrenty period.

Out of warrrenty, however, means just that. You are on your own. Best you can hope for is BMW to help out. They have done that int he past for some people, but not all. Best way to get BMW's help in this area is to get your BMW dealer to stand behind you and talk to BMW corporate on your behalf. That's why you should cultivate your BMW dealer relationship.

I have to admit I'm happy with my current dealer. Thier service/parts/dealer department has helped me out more than once. Just today I had them install my Smartire sensors. When they pulled the front wheel they found a bubble in the sidewall of an almost new ME880. The service manager's first thought was to have me buy a new tire. My first thought was OK, better now then have a blowout on my 3 day ride this month with the SO on the back.

My second thought was ... hey don't these have a warrenty? I bought the motorcyle used at this dealer. I was informed at purchase time that all work on the motorcycle was performed by the same dealer. SO, they should have records of the purchase date if needed. So, I asked about a warrenty. Instead of just blowing me off like some dealer would, he turned and pulled out the Metzler dealer documentation and looked up the warrenty. Then turned to me and said "I can cover this under warrenty" and saved me at least $150.00.

I don't think this same behavior would have happened at my closer BMW dealer. But BMW of SD is another dealership alltogether. I encourage everyone to find a similar dealer in thier area if possible. The closest, is not always the best.
 
ArthurKnowles said:
I can't speak for the excessive miles, but the service work is why I tell people that have new motorcycles and a warrenty to let the BMW dealer do the work. Makes a heck of a difference if a claim needs to be filed with BMW corporate later. As you found out.

it doesn't always go that way, but there is enough leeway that BMW can always contest teh compatency of your out of BMW Dealer service. You of course can contest that charge back, however, and then it is up to BMW to prove it. If you are still in your warrenty period.

Out of warrrenty, however, means just that. You are on your own. Best you can hope for is BMW to help out. They have done that int he past for some people, but not all. Best way to get BMW's help in this area is to get your BMW dealer to stand behind you and talk to BMW corporate on your behalf. That's why you should cultivate your BMW dealer relationship.

I have to admit I'm happy with my current dealer. Thier service/parts/dealer department has helped me out more than once. Just today I had them install my Smartire sensors. When they pulled the front wheel they found a bubble in the sidewall of an almost new ME880. The service manager's first thought was to have me buy a new tire. My first thought was OK, better now then have a blowout on my 3 day ride this month with the SO on the back.

My second thought was ... hey don't these have a warrenty? I bought the motorcyle used at this dealer. I was informed at purchase time that all work on the motorcycle was performed by the same dealer. SO, they should have records of the purchase date if needed. So, I asked about a warrenty. Instead of just blowing me off like some dealer would, he turned and pulled out the Metzler dealer documentation and looked up the warrenty. Then turned to me and said "I can cover this under warrenty" and saved me at least $150.00.

I don't think this same behavior would have happened at my closer BMW dealer. But BMW of SD is another dealership alltogether. I encourage everyone to find a similar dealer in thier area if possible. The closest, is not always the best.
Click to expand...

I agree that it is a good thing to establish a relationship with a dealer for warranty and other work.

But the work that Officer Impersonator required was not part of any routine service on the bike. Failure of the clutch splines, input shaft and transmission bearings cannot be tied to 6K, 12K or annual services. They are due to design and/or QC faults that are built into certain motorcycles through BMW's ineptitude. And true to form, BMW refuses to take any responsibility for something that is clearly a manufacturing issue.
 
Hopefully I will know more by tomorrow, the bike is at the dealer. Maybe they'll have it torn down and diagnosed by Friday:whistle
 
johnnyjs1 said:
Hopefully I will know more by tomorrow, the bike is at the dealer. Maybe they'll have it torn down and diagnosed by Friday:whistle
Click to expand...

When I took mine to the dealer for my new clutch input shaft/hub, they knew exactly what had happened when they heard those very same noises when they started the engine and tried to engage 1st gear.

All the techs know all about this problem. None of the corporate muckety-mucks have ever heard of such a thing.
 
Motorcyclist said:
I agree that it is a good thing to establish a relationship with a dealer for warranty and other work.

But the work that Officer Impersonator required was not part of any routine service on the bike. Failure of the clutch splines, input shaft and transmission bearings cannot be tied to 6K, 12K or annual services. They are due to design and/or QC faults that are built into certain motorcycles through BMW's ineptitude. And true to form, BMW refuses to take any responsibility for something that is clearly a manufacturing issue.
Click to expand...

I recall the thread, but once again "out of warrenty" means "out of warrenty". There is no obligation for the previous owner or manufacturer to provide any support for it. Unless they choose to do so.

I'll probably get a lot of flak for that, but it's honestly the way I feel about it. When you buy used, you are buying a pig in a poke (i.e. unknown state & status). That means, you take your chances.

I'e had this same type of issue bite me before on buying used cars. Like suddently having to buy a replacement transmission because the original failed withiont a few hundred miles. Same with clutches. You buy used, you are the warrenty. You have to fix whatever breaks. Period. Regardless of how you feel about the design of the product, you are the responsible party. Complaining about it, or whining about it, isn't going to accomplish much. Persuing legal alternatives might, but that's about it.

Best you can do in such a circumstance is to get the dealer to help. They have a lot more clout with the manufacturer than you do. But how many dealers (car or motorccyle) want to go to bat for you if you didn't buy it from them? Or if you don't use the dealer for service, why should they choose to go to bat for you? And as you know, going one on one with BMW NA isn't always going to prove successful. And in many case I understand their viewpoint completely (out of warrenty means out of warrenty - and where you get it services counts as well).
 
ArthurKnowles said:
I recall the thread, but once again "out of warrenty" means "out of warrenty". There is no obligation for the previous owner or manufacturer to provide any support for it. Unless they choose to do so.

I'll probably get a lot of flak for that, but it's honestly the way I feel about it. When you buy used, you are buying a pig in a poke (i.e. unknown state & status). That means, you take your chances.

I'e had this same type of issue bite me before on buying used cars. Like suddently having to buy a replacement transmission because the original failed withiont a few hundred miles. Same with clutches. You buy used, you are the warrenty. You have to fix whatever breaks. Period. Regardless of how you feel about the design of the product, you are the responsible party. Complaining about it, or whining about it, isn't going to accomplish much. Persuing legal alternatives might, but that's about it.

Best you can do in such a circumstance is to get the dealer to help. They have a lot more clout with the manufacturer than you do. But how many dealers (car or motorccyle) want to go to bat for you if you didn't buy it from them? Or if you don't use the dealer for service, why should they choose to go to bat for you? And as you know, going one on one with BMW NA isn't always going to prove successful. And in many case I understand their viewpoint completely (out of warrenty means out of warrenty - and where you get it services counts as well).
Click to expand...

Well, I bought my bike brand new from a dealer. Three years and 55,000 miles later I had the same failure as OI. And BMW gave me the same answer as he, Johnny, and many others have recieved....out of warranty, not going to help.

I am in agreement with your point that out of warranty is truly out of warranty. The mfgr. has no responsibility to help the customer, unless, they actually want to develop a loyal customer base, receive positive word of mouth advertising, and grow their market share. My problem is that BMW knows there is an inherent problem in some percentage of oilheads. And if you look around, these failures are not a rarity, and I believe they will become more numerous as more miles get put on the bikes. When a mfgr. improperly designs or assembles a product, they should step up and make things right. At least if they want to be considered a reputable manufacturer. Look at Yamaha with the ticking valves on the FJR. From everything I have read, Yamaha warrantied every problem regardless of years or mileage, or warranty status. That is how I expect a reputable manufacturer to behave when faced with a QC issue. With BMW you are paying a premium to own their product. Is a BMW bike 30% to 50% better than a comparable competitors product? In terms of function, probably not. But if I pay a premium for a BMW product, I damn well expect them to be stand up people when something goes wrong on the short end of the lifecycle. And particularly when that something is a well documented failure.

And I did pursue them in court. When I get a formal judgement against them in a few months, I'll be smiling when I either receive a check from BMWAG, or place an attachment on something of value to them. They made their decision to deny any goodwill, and accordingly, I have made my decision regarding future ownership of their products.
 
RE: clutch spline problem

You go boy! I ride this same machine and hate to think of being helplessly stranded in the future. I don't use a dealer for service & if I did it would be an all day trip just to go & come back, let alone the service time & $!. If a manufacture wants the public trust on this type issue, they should cultivate it! The extremely weak fuel disconnects are a similar issue on this bike.
I once had a 4x4 Mazda van-was the Motor Trend Car of the Year in 1990, no less. I had a torque converter failure @ 50,112k.I learned from the best tranny guy in these parts, that the part was not up to the task application. Guess if Mazda covered the repair? Guess if I'll ever buy a Mazda? I like the BMW brand(worked on the cars since 1969), but a thing like the above could cause me and others to look elsewhere...:whistle
 
I've got an '04 R1150. All this talk in this thread has me seriously looking at a Bandit 1250!

They're a pretty sturdy bike aren't they?
 
Motorcyclist said:
Well, I bought my bike brand new from a dealer. Three years and 55,000 miles later I had the same failure as OI. And BMW gave me the same answer as he, Johnny, and many others have recieved....out of warranty, not going to help.

I am in agreement with your point that out of warranty is truly out of warranty. The mfgr. has no responsibility to help the customer, unless, they actually want to develop a loyal customer base, receive positive word of mouth advertising, and grow their market share. My problem is that BMW knows there is an inherent problem in some percentage of oilheads. And if you look around, these failures are not a rarity, and I believe they will become more numerous as more miles get put on the bikes. When a mfgr. improperly designs or assembles a product, they should step up and make things right. At least if they want to be considered a reputable manufacturer. Look at Yamaha with the ticking valves on the FJR. From everything I have read, Yamaha warrantied every problem regardless of years or mileage, or warranty status. That is how I expect a reputable manufacturer to behave when faced with a QC issue. With BMW you are paying a premium to own their product. Is a BMW bike 30% to 50% better than a comparable competitors product? In terms of function, probably not. But if I pay a premium for a BMW product, I damn well expect them to be stand up people when something goes wrong on the short end of the lifecycle. And particularly when that something is a well documented failure.

And I did pursue them in court. When I get a formal judgement against them in a few months, I'll be smiling when I either receive a check from BMWAG, or place an attachment on something of value to them. They made their decision to deny any goodwill, and accordingly, I have made my decision regarding future ownership of their products.
Click to expand...

+1,000,000
Gonna call the dealer today and see what is going on. When I dropped the bike off, the service and sales managers said they would do everything they can to get me a favorable decision from BMWNA. But after talking to a few people who have had some extensive dealings and knowledge about this particular dealer, I'm thinking the managers were blowing smoke up my a$$. The owner...some rich guy who never owned a BMW prior to buying his dealership. Doesnt seem to care too much about customer satisfaction as long as he keeps sellin bikes(but with his attitude, wont be selling lots a bikes too much longer). So..i'm not too confident that the dealer will go to bat for me. If all this doesnt work out well for me, I honestly dont think I can/will ever own another BMW, knowing how poorly they treat their customers. Sure..I'm just one little guy, with one little bike, but eventually one little guy will turn into thousands of little guys. Maybe them BMW will take responsiblity for their crappy Q.C. regarding parts and possibly assembly. As far as warranty goes: Thousands of bikes are having the same issues after the warranty expires, you'd think BMW would address this and extend the warranty on those parts that are failing, or at least remedy the repair cost in part.

I can do 95% of the maintenance on my bike myself, yet I chose to spend the big bucks and take it to my dealer, for the sole purpose of building a relationship with them. I guess we'll see if my extra effort and $$ is gonna pay off.:blush
 
kreinke said:
I've got an '04 R1150. All this talk in this thread has me seriously looking at a Bandit 1250!

They're a pretty sturdy bike aren't they?
Click to expand...

The Bandit is a great bike, I've ridden the 1250 and it has a smooth, powerful, and tractable motor. The handling is excellent as well, and the aftermarket is being very supportive. I especially like the Givi panniers that are available. I have seen a few touring around this year, and overall it seems they are a very nice package for a very reasonable price. And chain drive has come a long way since I last had them in the early 80's. A night and day difference.

Your R may be fine from a maintenance standpoint, certainly many do not have the problems some of us have experienced. And if you get a good one, they tend to stay that way. But the fly in the ointment is, you never really know what you've got until something happens. And there is a certain percentage out there that will fail prematurely. If BMW gave owners some sense of support, then taking a chance and racking up the miles is not as big a deal. But that is not their MO, from what I can see. The result for me is that I lost confidence in my bike (and BMW in general) over several issues that have cropped up, the last straw being the transmission bearing/spline failure. My solution was to buy a Triumph Tiger as my primary touring bike, a decision which I do not regret.

BMW makes a bike that has nice power and good handling characteristics, the trick is to be lucky and purchase the ones that do not have built in self destruct issues!

Good luck in your decision!
 
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