No Synthetic Oil Until 10k??

Burnszilla said:

To add more confusion... If you talk to the Spectro oil rep he will tell you that the oil in BMW bottles is actually API SL and BMW has not changed the SG label.

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Ok. I have to respond to this. I don't know if BMW has been delinquent in changing the label or if they purposely didn't since their oil really does comply to SG whereas the the SL oils may not. I will leave it up to the reader to understand why.

Maybe I can change the subject for a while: I switched my '07 1200RT to synthetic at the 12k service in July, just before leaving on a month long trip. After about 800 miles, I noticed a drop in oil level for the first time on this bike. Over the next 5k miles, the level consistently dropped about .25 inch in the sight glass per every 500 miles. After about 4 days, signs of a leak appeared with oil running down the swing arm.

I took the bike to a dealer in Michigan for the 18k service and to investigate the oil leak. They cleaned everything up and found no signs of a leak after a test drive. I forgot to tell them I was running synthetic so they put dino oil in during the service.

I have put another 4k miles on the bike since then and the oil level has remained unchanged with no signs of any leak. So, I can only assume that the oil loss is related to the synthetic oil. With the 24k service coming up soon, IÔÇÖm thinking I might stick with the dino.

dpspeer said:

Maybe I can change the subject for a while: I switched my '07 1200RT to synthetic at the 12k service in July, just before leaving on a month long trip. After about 800 miles, I noticed a drop in oil level for the first time on this bike. Over the next 5k miles, the level consistently dropped about .25 inch in the sight glass per every 500 miles. After about 4 days, signs of a leak appeared with oil running down the swing arm.

I took the bike to a dealer in Michigan for the 18k service and to investigate the oil leak. They cleaned everything up and found no signs of a leak after a test drive. I forgot to tell them I was running synthetic so they put dino oil in during the service.

I have put another 4k miles on the bike since then and the oil level has remained unchanged with no signs of any leak. So, I can only assume that the oil loss is related to the synthetic oil. With the 24k service coming up soon, IÔÇÖm thinking I might stick with the dino.

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Thanks for the info. This is the kind of information I was looking for when I submitted the thread. I do know that oil topics can get quite "abuzz" with all the opinions and info out there. What I was looking for was why run dino up to a certain point? And the general consensus is that it seems to aid in the break in better than synthetic. However, yours is not the first post that alluded to the fact that the engine began to leak after switching to synthetic. I think that unless I hear anything to the contrary, I will stick with BMW dino for now. For the record, my RT has 2500 miles at this time, and is using no oil, and has no leaks.

leadfoot said:

I will stick with BMW dino for now. For the record, my RT has 2500 miles at this time, and is using no oil, and has no leaks.

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BMW also recommends Castrol. Less expensive and "sanctioned".

dpspeer said:

I have put another 4k miles on the bike since then and the oil level has remained unchanged with no signs of any leak. So, I can only assume that the oil loss is related to the synthetic oil. With the 24k service coming up soon, IÔÇÖm thinking I might stick with the dino.

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I'll just comment - I wouldn't be satisified with a bike that leaked synthetic oil. The fact that it does means a seal is bad. I'd want that fixed while it's under warranty - seals don't get better on their own. At best - it will remain the same, at worst, it will start leaking standard dino-oil.

leadfoot said:

I will stick with BMW dino for now. For the record, my RT has 2500 miles at this time, and is using no oil, and has no leaks.

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For the record - my R12R has 18,600 miles at this time, uses no oil and has no leaks. I use BMW synthetic oil. I've been using it since 5,500 miles.

And that really proves not much of anything, except you can't necessarily attribute lack of leaks and oil use to the type of oil you're using. IF the engine is running correctly and assembled correctly - dino or synthetic - should both work just fine.

deilenberger said:

...both work just fine.

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I love choices.

I waited until reaching 18K km (approx 13K miles), switched to full syntetic and just returned from 7500 km tour, did not require an oil top off. My '07 RT got as good and sometimes better mileage than my wife's 650 VStrom; both ran the same oil too.

grafikfeat said:

I love choices.

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how about paraffin based motor oil?



RM

rocketman said:

how about paraffin based motor oil?



RM

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Can't hold a candle to it!

deilenberger said:

I'll just comment - I wouldn't be satisified with a bike that leaked synthetic oil. The fact that it does means a seal is bad. I'd want that fixed while it's under warranty - seals don't get better on their own. At best - it will remain the same, at worst, it will start leaking standard dino-oil.

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I have to agree with you, but, when you're 2,500 miles from home and tell a dealer you have an oil leak and they clean it up, test drive it and say "we couldn't find any leaks", what are you going to do? Not only was I surprised by that, but I was also told they didn't perform the recall on the antennae ring as "we saw you are carrying a spare".

I have no doubt the rear seal is leaking, the mechanic that first looked at it agreed. One other thing I told them at the time was that I could smell burnt oil during heavy clutch use while following some idiot trying to haul a trailer over the ridge in Rocky Mtn N.P.

No, I'm not satisfied with a bike that leaks synthetic oil and requires me to carry spare parts to insure it will start, nor am I satisfied by this particular dealer's response. I'll take it up with my local dealer during the next service but the fact remains it doesn't leak dino oil.

To the original poster:

I also run Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in my H-D, mainly because of its superior thermal stability, as my Night Train has no oil cooler on it. The bike ran just fine with basic H-D dino oil in it, too. I just feel safer with the Mobil 1 in there.

Though my '07 RT's owner's manual says I can use synthetic oil after 6,000 miles, I am definitely not going to be running Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in it (should it ever quit using oil). V-Twin is very specifically formulated for H-D air-cooled V twins, which place quite different demands on their oil than do BMW Boxers (especially the late-model hex head RTs with their rather macho oil coolers). The Harleys have almost no plain bearings in them. The plain bearings found in our Boxers require a lot more from the oil, in terms of shear resistance, than the ball/needle/roller bearings found throughout H-D's Big Twin and Sportster do. In addition, those shear demands increase radically with the (comparatively) elevated engine speeds seen by the Boxers. The only area where the demand on the oil in your H-D will actually exceed the demand on the oil in your BMW will be in the area that caused me to purposely choose V-Twin synthetic for my H-D in the first place: thermal stability. That rear cylinder on a Harley runs a lot hotter than the front cylinder and, I suspect, a lot hotter than either cylinder on your Beemer. Plus, the oil cooler on your H-D has about 1/2 the capacity of the one on you RT and it's located, more or less, in the relatively dead air behind the front suspension. As a result, H-D's touring bikes need the thermal stability of a good synthetic even more than my Night Train does.

My RT has about 7500 miles on it right now and has had BMW 10-40 dino in it since it was new. Somewhere around 3000 miles, the oil consumption fell off to a much-reduced-but-not-yet-zero level. Until, literally, yesterday I would have said that I would continue to use dino oil (though not BMW's: it's more expensive than actual synthetic in these parts!) indefinitely. Yesterday I was on my way into the H-D 105th anniversary party (on the RT! And yes, I got compliments) and got stuck in a 1/4 mile long traffic jam that moved exactly two car lengths on each cycle of the stop light. It was about 90 degrees out and the bike was idling for close to 1/2 an hour. Previously, I'd never seen the temperature bar graph more than 1 notch above the 1/2 mark, but this time it was at or above 3/4! Of course, nobody knows how hot that means that the oil actually got, but when I finally cleared the stop light and got moving again, the bike wasn't running quite normally until later in the evening when it had cooled down. Before I let that happen again, I'll either add the RTP oil cooler fan setup or switch to synthetic oil. I'm still thinking it over...

1analguy said:

I also run Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in my H-D . . . Though my '07 RT's owner's manual says I can use synthetic oil after 6,000 miles, I am definitely not going to be running Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic in it (should it ever quit using oil). V-Twin is very specifically formulated for H-D air-cooled V twins, which place quite different demands on their oil than do BMW Boxers (especially the late-model hex head RTs with their rather macho oil coolers).

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So . . . your opinion is that Mobil 1 V-Twin is intentionally formulated to be LESS capable than the other Mobil 1 engine oils (even though it has the highest ZDDP content)? Other than your speculation that V-Twin was "very specifically formulated" for H-D engines and therefore the oil doesn't need to be as robust (as opposed to, say, this is all a marketing ploy), do you have ANY objective evidence to support your claim?

leadfoot said:

Gonna change the oil & filter on my new RT soon, as well as a valve adjustment. I have heard some say that it is best to wait until after 10K before using synthetic oil. I could not find anything in my manual. My only guess is that non-synthetic oil helps to promote a better break-in. Can anyone confirm or deny this?? I have used Mobil 1 V Twin Synthetic on my HD and it peformed well, but the Boxer is a new bread for me and I want what is best for it. Any preferences?

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Here is the official answer from BMW. Service Bulletin BMW Synthetic Motor Oil in CHP Police Motorcycles. This reminds me of Harley-Davidson who will not publish the API of any of their motor oils and insist that only Harley-Davidson motor oils be used in a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

Read the preceding post re BMW oil recommendations and noted API class SJ oils are not approved for use. Now I'm somewhat (somewhat...?) confused; have an '07 RT, pg 147 of the owners manual states "Engine oils of API classification SF or better." I would presume this does not preclude use of SJ and would seem to contradict the service bulletin. I am now using Castrol Syntec and on the bottle it reads SM,SL,SJ,CF. If there are wiser minds on this topic please post technical data on this matter.

1analguy said:

The Harleys have almost no plain bearings in them. The plain bearings found in our Boxers require a lot more from the oil, in terms of shear resistance, than the ball/needle/roller bearings found throughout H-D's Big Twin and Sportster do...

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We can go on, and on and on...and we probably will, but..

It's the roller bearings that are harder on oil than plain bearings, not the other way around. The larger surface area of a plain bearing is less prone to slicing up long molecule chains than a roller or ball bearing, where the forces are concentrated on a small surface area (like in a pair of scissors). I can probably dig out a reference from old an old mechanical engineering text, if you hold a gun to my head...

I wouldn't use "motorcycle oil" from HD, or RedLine, or anyone else either, because those are generally formulated with friction modifiers to facilitate the smooth operatation of a wet clutch, and our R bikes have a dry clutch. I don't know that these additives would be harmful; maybe we can start another oil thread about that...

Cheers, Tom

I love oil threads, they are the perpetual motion machines of these forums.

They go round and round and never resolve a thing.

Reminds me of religious arguments.

For all you gluttons for punishment I highly recommend a forum dedicated to oil:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Have fun!

airoilheadbeemerguy said:

Read the preceding post re BMW oil recommendations and noted API class SJ oils are not approved for use. Now I'm somewhat (somewhat...?) confused; have an '07 RT, pg 147 of the owners manual states "Engine oils of API classification SF or better." I would presume this does not preclude use of SJ and would seem to contradict the service bulletin. I am now using Castrol Syntec and on the bottle it reads SM,SL,SJ,CF. If there are wiser minds on this topic please post technical data on this matter.

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There have been several posts explaining the SF/SG/SH vs. SJ/SL/SM distinction, probably in this thread. Search for PGlaves posts. Hint - It has to do with ZDDP content.

When the API rating of SJ came out, it allowed less antiwear protection in the heavy weights of oil and mandated less antiwear protection in the light weights. This was done to prolong the life of the cat convertors in cars. So since we could not be sure that the antiwear protection was up to what BMW thought was required, BMW advised us to use oil rated SG or SH, but not SJ or above.

cjack said:

When the API rating of SJ came out, it allowed less antiwear protection in the heavy weights of oil and mandated less antiwear protection in the light weights. This was done to prolong the life of the cat convertors in cars. So since we could not be sure that the antiwear protection was up to what BMW thought was required, BMW advised us to use oil rated SG or SH, but not SJ or above.

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But . . . since we use "heavy weights" (i.e., higher viscosity) oil in our BMW motorcycles, it is possible to get higher contents of the "antiwear" ingredients (i.e., ZDDP) in the later SJ/SL/SM engine oils . . . but you have to check the specs for the particular brand/viscosity you want to use to "be sure" you are actually getting them.

However, while under BMW warranty you should only use an SG/SH engine oil (as BMW specifies) to avoid any potential warranty claim issues. Legalities rants aside, this is the safest path while under warranty. After the warranty expires . . . pick your own oil.