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Thread: No Synthetic Oil Until 10k??

  1. #31
    Kool Aid Dispenser! jimvonbaden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBasa View Post
    At 20K miles, my RT has finally stopped using oil. I'll switch to synthetic now.

    Actually, it used a bit less than a pint over 3700 miles when we went to the rally and back.
    Mine finally stopped using much oil during my trip, 7300 miles in 16 days at 53K miles. About time too!

    Jim
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimVonBaden1 View Post
    You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?

    BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.
    I don't want to get too lawyerly here, but if you have an engine failure and make a warrantly claim, you just want BMW to agree to fix it on their dime without any argument. You do NOT want BMW resisting a warranty repair because they assert "insufficient lubrication" because you did not use the specified SG engine oil, and then you both go to court to make you arguments about whether or not the non-SG engine oil you used provides equivalent lubrication and protection.

    Yes, you might eventually win, but it will make those few extras bucks you spent on BMW's (or someone else's) SG engine oil during the warranty period seem like the cheapest . . . insurance policy . . . ever.
    Mike White
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    '13 K1300S "30 Years", '95 R1100RS, '88 K75S, '97 Ducati 916, '95 Ducati 900SS CR. Gone, but not forgotten, '75 R90S

  3. #33
    Kool Aid Dispenser! jimvonbaden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeemerMike View Post
    I don't want to get too lawyerly here, but if you have an engine failure and make a warrantly claim, you just want BMW to agree to fix it on their dime without any argument. You do NOT want BMW resisting a warranty repair because they assert "insufficient lubrication" because you did not use the specified SG engine oil, and then you both go to court to make you arguments about whether or not the non-SG engine oil you used provides equivalent lubrication and protection.

    Yes, you might eventually win, but it will make those few extras bucks you spent on BMW's (or someone else's) SG engine oil during the warranty period seem like the cheapest . . . insurance policy . . . ever.
    I have absolutely NEVER heard of this happening, and the Magnuson/Moss act espressly forbids it. I highly doubt it would ever make it to court. This is exactly the kind of fear the manufacturers count on. Better not do any of your own maintenance for the same reasons!

    http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

    Federal law sets forth requirements for warranties and contains a number of provisions to prevent vehicle manufacturers, dealers and others from unjustly denying warranty coverage. With regard to aftermarket parts, the spirit of the law is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such parts are present on the vehicle, or have been used (see Attachment A).The warranty coverage can be denied only if the aftermarket part caused the malfunction or damage for which warranty coverage is sought. Disputes in this area usually boil down to arguments over facts and technical opinions, rather than arguments over interpretations of the law.
    The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act may also be helpful. Under this federal law, you can sue on breach of express and implied warranties. The main point of interest here is that the Act says warranty coverage may not be conditioned upon the use of only the vehicle manufacturer's parts unless the parts are provided free of charge. In other words, use of a non-carmaker product should not void your warranty unless it caused the problem.
    But hey, pay double for the same oul you can get cheaper if it makes you feel better!

    Jim
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimVonBaden1 View Post
    I have absolutely NEVER heard of this happening, and the Magnuson/Moss act espressly forbids it. I highly doubt it would ever make it to court. This is exactly the kind of fear the manufacturers count on. Better not do any of your own maintenance for the same reasons!
    I did not say you had to use BMW brand oil (which is the primary M-M issue), but rather I was talking about using the specified API class, i.e., SG vs. SM, whatever the brand. However, this is a risk-reward-avoidance decision that everyone is free to make, since it only affects THEIR motorcycle and THEIR potential warranty claim, and no one else's.
    Mike White
    MOA Life Time Member #57882
    '13 K1300S "30 Years", '95 R1100RS, '88 K75S, '97 Ducati 916, '95 Ducati 900SS CR. Gone, but not forgotten, '75 R90S

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by deilenberger View Post
    BMW hasn't published the number, but let me see if I can dig out my last oil analysis (done on 6k used BMW synthetic oil..)
    Good info. Thanks Don.
    Mike White
    MOA Life Time Member #57882
    '13 K1300S "30 Years", '95 R1100RS, '88 K75S, '97 Ducati 916, '95 Ducati 900SS CR. Gone, but not forgotten, '75 R90S

  6. #36
    Kool Aid Dispenser! jimvonbaden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeemerMike View Post
    I did not say you had to use BMW brand oil (which is the primary M-M issue), but rather I was talking about using the specified API class, i.e., SG vs. SM, whatever the brand. However, this is a risk-reward-avoidance decision that everyone is free to make, since it only affects THEIR motorcycle and THEIR potential warranty claim, and no one else's.

    So how is BMW going to "prove" you did not use the proper classification of oil, and that that was the cause of the issue.? Remember, it is their responsibility to prove the oil you used caused the problem, irrespective of the "brand" you used.

    Again, I have not ever heard of the oil used being used as a basis for claim denial.

    Jim
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  7. #37
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    Gee, I did not intend to re-start the "Great Oil Debate" again! I think it has been discussed on every forum that has anything to do with engines, I am sure of that! Lots of good points here, and I guess everyone has their own opinion of what is best for their bike versus what is best for their pocket. I simply was asking for an explaination as to why it is recommended to use conventional oil for "X" amount of miles before using Synthetic. Not that I plan on using Syn, I just had the impression that Dino oil provided a better break-in.

    I just wanted clarification so that I am not credited for starting the Oil Debate again! (Unless it is too late for that!) LOL

    BTW...although it is interesting hearing other's opinions regarding their oil preferences.
    Jim Mock
    2008 R1200RT (The Blue Mule), R90/6 (New to me)
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  8. #38
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimVonBaden1 View Post
    You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?

    BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.

    Jim
    Jim,

    BMW can do whatever they want, including denying warranty repairs. They can simply delay repairs and require proof from ME that it didn't cause an engine failure. Magnuson-Moss is a real nice act, with no real teeth, so yes - while it's under warranty it gets BMW oil bought at the dealer and I save the receipts (for the filters I buy from them also.) Doing that precludes even any discussion about warranty coverage.

    If it comes down to push and shove - there is no government agency I know of that enforces warranties or Magnuson-Moss. If you want to fight a warranty denial in NJ - you have to hire an attorney to do it.. and pay the attorney since none of them are gonna do it on a contingency basis.

    Would the owner win? Maybe - if they can show the oil they used meets BMW requirements, which in the case of Mobil-1, would be difficult since it actually doesn't. The BMW requirements are SG/SH *labeled* and no newer approval. That doesn't mean that Mobil-1 doesn't technically meet the requirements for extreme pressure additives (it does) - but that it isn't labeled or characterized by the manufacturer as such. Magnuson-Moss isn't a blank check for owners to use anything in place of manufacturer supplied parts.. you still have to use parts that meet the manufacturer's specifications. Since Mobil also sells "Big Twin" oils, I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't back use of the standard automotive oil in a boxer engine. Call me goofy (many do) - but I can't see what would be in it for them to defend using a less profitable product vs a more profitable one.

    I'm a practical sorta guy... I don't want hassle when it can be easily avoided. Buying oil and filters from the dealer makes them feel warm and fuzzy (they know my face.. they know I spend $$ with them), and it makes me feel secure there wouldn't be a warranty denial problem. All it costs is $$ - and in the scheme of things, over the life of the warranty - the additional cost is probably about a case of decent beer. Not enough for me to worry about.

    YMMV - and use whatever YOU want in YOUR bike, and I'll use what I want in mine.
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders
    '12 R1200R - I love this bike!

  9. #39
    Registered User Rinty's Avatar
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    synthetic oil

    Would the owner win?...deilenberger
    Besides the cost of the attorney fees which may be necessary to handle the case, an owner will also need to pay the cost of expert witness fees to give evidence about the suitability of the oil. Assuming one can find an expert witness nearby.

    And after all of that, the judge hearing the case may not know the difference between a Robertson and Phillips screwdriver.

    We have a VW Golf under warranty, and I always phone ahead to the drive through lube place to make sure they have the official filter in stock. Like General Yeager says: "Don't look for trouble."

    Rinty

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimVonBaden1 View Post
    So how is BMW going to "prove" you did not use the proper classification of oil, and that that was the cause of the issue.? Remember, it is their responsibility to prove the oil you used caused the problem, irrespective of the "brand" you used.
    Again, we are not talking about the "brand" of oil, we are talking about the API classification of the oil. Assuming the engine failure is arguably lubrication related (i.e., not a blown computer, failed alternator bearing, or a broken head stud), and BMW decided to make the oil used an issue, BMW would have already obtained your maintenance records (including the oil you used) in the discovery phase of the litigation. At trial, and assuming you were not planning to lie under oath, the "proof" would go something like this:

    Q: Mr. VonBaden, what engine oil did you use in your BMW motorcycle?
    A: ABC XXw-YY.

    Q: What is the API classification of ABC XXw-YY?
    A: SM. (If you say you don't know, they will just put a witness on the stand who will provide the information about ABC XXw-YY.)

    Q: What is the API classification specified in your BMW owners manual?
    A: SG/SH. (If you say you don't know, they will just put a witness on the stand who will enter the BMW owners manual into evidence and state the API classification specified.)

    Q: No further questions, your honor.

    BMW would then put a witness on the stand to explain why BMW specifies SG/SH engine oil, and the burden of proof would then almost certainly shift to you to show that the non-SG/SH oil you used is equivalent to the specified SG/SH oil.

    Have fun!

    Or . . . you could just use an SG/SH oil (pick your favorite brand) until the warranty expires.
    Mike White
    MOA Life Time Member #57882
    '13 K1300S "30 Years", '95 R1100RS, '88 K75S, '97 Ducati 916, '95 Ducati 900SS CR. Gone, but not forgotten, '75 R90S

  11. #41
    Registered User lionlady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leadfoot View Post
    Gonna change the oil & filter on my new RT soon, as well as a valve adjustment. I have heard some say that it is best to wait until after 10K before using synthetic oil. I could not find anything in my manual. My only guess is that non-synthetic oil helps to promote a better break-in. Can anyone confirm or deny this?? I have used Mobil 1 V Twin Synthetic on my HD and it peformed well, but the Boxer is a new bread for me and I want what is best for it. Any preferences?
    Hmmm, the MD State Trooper BMWs get switched to synth at the 600 mile service. That's when I switched mine.

    P
    Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity.

  12. #42
    On the Road BigAdv's Avatar
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    I just love reading these treads on which oil is best. I usually just read with amusement and move on to the next tread, but today I would like to pose a question. Before I do I would like to qualify myself. For the past twenty years I have been employed and certified as an automotive service technician, I have my Alberta journeyman certificate, my Canadian red seal interprovincal journeyman certificate, I am certified by ASE in A1 through A8 and L1, I am also a certified Ford master technician, and a Land Rover gold certified master technician. I have taken lubricant chemical analysis courses at collage level; I have performed the oil tests on new and used oils that Don has done by Black Stone labs. In my time I have torn down and repaired/replaced many a engine that has failed in one way or another. I have seen many interesting things cause an engine to fail, some of the more notable ones are; lack of oil-due to leaks, usage, and owner neglect. Contaminated oil ΤΗτ usually from a failed gasket allowing coolant into the oil. Hard part failures-stress failure due to abuse, manufacturer defects, poor workmanship, etc. Air/ fuel system failures resulting in Eng. Damage- leaking inj causing a scuffed piston, poor air filtration causing dusted cylinders, and my favourite, poor quality fuel causing pinging and resulting in ultrasonic erosion of the nicasil liners. Now there are lots more that I have seen, these are just some examples. The point is I have never been able to directly conclude that oil has been the cause of a failure.

    So the question that I posse is this; Has anyone had modern engine failure that was the direct result of the oil used?

    Earl

  13. #43
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAdv View Post
    So the question that I posse is this; Has anyone had modern engine failure that was the direct result of the oil used?

    Earl
    Depends on what'cha mean by modern. I had a '61 Volvo PV544 engine crack a ring, and I blamed it on the quart of Esso oil I'd added a few days before.. (I'd always used Quaker State.)

    A bit more recently than that - BMW - on the 2001-2006 E46/M3 series cars originally specified 10W-30 synthetic. They had a lot of engines exploding (rods through the side of the engine sort of exploding, pistons going into the head..), and they then switched the oil requirement to a very rare 10W-60 synthetic. (Castrol TWS oil - made in Germany, sold by BMW dealers and a few aftermarket parts places.. I've thought of using it in the R12R actually - it's cheaper than the 15W-50 bike synthetic.)

    It isn't clear if the failures were due to the oil being used or the 8k red-line in a long straight 6.. but it was there. The engines stopped blowing up after the oil spec change and after BMW replaced all the connecting rod bearings and oil pumps in about 3 years worth of cars.

    Other than that - nope, but the M3 one was pretty significant (the engine costs more than my R12R..)

    Been meaning to do an oil analysis on the oil from my M3.. but it's really just transportation.. the R12R is the passion.
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders
    '12 R1200R - I love this bike!

  14. #44
    My "owners manual" states:

    "BMW recommends Castrol."


    So much for their brand.

  15. #45
    K Bikes Complex by Choice cjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grafikfeat View Post
    My "owners manual" states:

    "BMW recommends Castrol."


    So much for their brand.
    Those manuals are prepared in Germany and BMWAG has a deal with Castrol. I think the manual also says SF to SH. If you can get some SH Castrol, then that is within their guidelines.
    As far as "their brand" goes, in the USA BMWNA has a deal with Spectro who makes their branded oil and it is rated SH.
    Generally, I think any warranty/oil issue would only come up if a dealer, for whatever reason, initiated the issue. Some dealers seem to come up with a lot of odd/erroneous/and blaming the customer reasons for things that go wrong with our BMWs. I think you should know your dealer as well as your oil while making a choice.
    R1200GS LC Rallye
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