-
Welcome, Guest! We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMW MOA forum provides. Some forum content will be hidden from you if you remain logged out. If you want to view all content, please click the 'Log in' button above and enter your BMW MOA username and password. If you are not an MOA member, why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the BMW Owners News magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMW MOA offers?
-
Beginning April 1st, and running through April 30th, there is a new 2024 BMW MOA Election discussion area within The Club section of the forum. Within this forum area is also a sticky post that provides the ground rules for participating in the Election forum area. Also, the candidates statements are provided. Please read before joining the conversation, because the rules are very specific to maintain civility.
The Election forum is here: Election Forum
No Synthetic Oil Until 10k??
- Thread starter leadfoot
- Start date
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
Stephen,
I'll assume this isn't a troll..
The answer is - no - as BMW sees it.
The SM/LS rated oils have less of the extreme pressure additive in them than BMW wants to see. These additives are the "last-chance" additive for oil.. they are generally light rare-metal additives, which are there to provide a metal to metal protective barrier if the oil film breaks down.
It likely would make no difference if you never overheat the engine, and if it never runs without lubricant circulating.
Higher doesn't always equate to better. The lower levels of these additives were set by the EPA to help protect catalytic converters in cars. The goal of the EPA and the goals of motorcyclists aren't always the same. I'm interested in low emissions AND long engine life. The EPA is interested in low emissions.
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
Does anyone know how much additive BMW wants to see? In other words, does anyone know how much ZDDP is in BMW's motorcycle oils (both dino and synthetic)?
Don, as you pointed out in another post (and I provided a spec chart for Mobil 1 oils), the higher viscosity engine oils have tend to have higher ZDDP contents because they are not subject to the lower ZDDP limits of the lower viscosity "eco oils", even though they carry the later SM rating.
grafikfeat
New member
I ride daily 108 rt to work. The only reason I mentioned #1 because two different BMW wrenches telling me that synth really has no benefit. This was after my mentioning the thought of switching over.
Thinking they would up-sell I was surprised. I always do my own oil. It's "required" every 3k on a "C". At 2160 a month in just commuting miles I'd like to lengthen that "change cycle". Both wrenches at different times said "save your money".
Hmmm...
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
BMW hasn't published the number, but let me see if I can dig out my last oil analysis (done on 6k used BMW synthetic oil..)
There'ya go.. that's used oil. Dunno what the new numbers are, but here is a link to a similar analysis I had done on my K75 - which had Mobil-1 15W-50 in it (not 15W-40 as the report says..) The numbers are pretty interesting actually..
http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/C21138.pdf (PDF - Adobe Acrobat needed to read it..) With the exception of magnesium, all the extreme pressure additives and acid neutralizing additives were higher than the BMW oil.
Agree entirely.. that's why I have the 4 gallons of Mobil-1 15W-50 sitting waiting for my warranty to expire..
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
No idea where 108 rt is.. or what that means.. You might try using synthetic for one oil change, and then sending it to Blackstone (or another lab) for an analysis. I think you're wasting $$ doing an oil change every 3k miles on a fairly unstressed engine like the "C" has in it.. The oil analysis would tell you if you could extend the change interval using a synthetic oil.
ylexot
New member
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
Ah... learn something every day..
jimvonbaden
Kool Aid Dispenser!
Agree entirely.. that's why I have the 4 gallons of Mobil-1 15W-50 sitting waiting for my warranty to expire..
You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?
BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.
Jim
jimvonbaden
Kool Aid Dispenser!
Mine finally stopped using much oil during my trip, 7300 miles in 16 days at 53K miles. About time too!
Jim
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?
BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.
I don't want to get too lawyerly here, but if you have an engine failure and make a warrantly claim, you just want BMW to agree to fix it on their dime without any argument. You do NOT want BMW resisting a warranty repair because they assert "insufficient lubrication" because you did not use the specified SG engine oil, and then you both go to court to make you arguments about whether or not the non-SG engine oil you used provides equivalent lubrication and protection.
Yes, you might eventually win, but it will make those few extras bucks you spent on BMW's (or someone else's) SG engine oil during the warranty period seem like the cheapest . . . insurance policy . . . ever.
jimvonbaden
Kool Aid Dispenser!
I have absolutely NEVER heard of this happening, and the Magnuson/Moss act espressly forbids it. I highly doubt it would ever make it to court. This is exactly the kind of fear the manufacturers count on. Better not do any of your own maintenance for the same reasons!
http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096
But hey, pay double for the same oul you can get cheaper if it makes you feel better!
Jim
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
I did not say you had to use BMW brand oil (which is the primary M-M issue), but rather I was talking about using the specified API class, i.e., SG vs. SM, whatever the brand. However, this is a risk-reward-avoidance decision that everyone is free to make, since it only affects THEIR motorcycle and THEIR potential warranty claim, and no one else's.
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
Good info. Thanks Don.
jimvonbaden
Kool Aid Dispenser!
So how is BMW going to "prove" you did not use the proper classification of oil, and that that was the cause of the issue.? Remember, it is their responsibility to prove the oil you used caused the problem, irrespective of the "brand" you used.
Again, I have not ever heard of the oil used being used as a basis for claim denial.
Jim
Gee, I did not intend to re-start the "Great Oil Debate" again! I think it has been discussed on every forum that has anything to do with engines, I am sure of that! Lots of good points here, and I guess everyone has their own opinion of what is best for their bike versus what is best for their pocket. I simply was asking for an explaination as to why it is recommended to use conventional oil for "X" amount of miles before using Synthetic. Not that I plan on using Syn, I just had the impression that Dino oil provided a better break-in.
I just wanted clarification so that I am not credited for starting the Oil Debate again! (Unless it is too late for that!) LOL
BTW...although it is interesting hearing other's opinions regarding their oil preferences.
I just wanted clarification so that I am not credited for starting the Oil Debate again! (Unless it is too late for that!) LOL
BTW...although it is interesting hearing other's opinions regarding their oil preferences.
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
Jim,You seriously wait for the warranty to expire before using NON-BMW oil?
BMW cannot deny warranty repairs for that! They would have to prove that the non-BMW oil was the problem with the bike and caused the failure, and that would be damn hard to do.
Jim
BMW can do whatever they want, including denying warranty repairs. They can simply delay repairs and require proof from ME that it didn't cause an engine failure. Magnuson-Moss is a real nice act, with no real teeth, so yes - while it's under warranty it gets BMW oil bought at the dealer and I save the receipts (for the filters I buy from them also.) Doing that precludes even any discussion about warranty coverage.
If it comes down to push and shove - there is no government agency I know of that enforces warranties or Magnuson-Moss. If you want to fight a warranty denial in NJ - you have to hire an attorney to do it.. and pay the attorney since none of them are gonna do it on a contingency basis.
Would the owner win? Maybe - if they can show the oil they used meets BMW requirements, which in the case of Mobil-1, would be difficult since it actually doesn't. The BMW requirements are SG/SH *labeled* and no newer approval. That doesn't mean that Mobil-1 doesn't technically meet the requirements for extreme pressure additives (it does) - but that it isn't labeled or characterized by the manufacturer as such. Magnuson-Moss isn't a blank check for owners to use anything in place of manufacturer supplied parts.. you still have to use parts that meet the manufacturer's specifications. Since Mobil also sells "Big Twin" oils, I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't back use of the standard automotive oil in a boxer engine. Call me goofy (many do) - but I can't see what would be in it for them to defend using a less profitable product vs a more profitable one.
I'm a practical sorta guy... I don't want hassle when it can be easily avoided. Buying oil and filters from the dealer makes them feel warm and fuzzy (they know my face.. they know I spend $$ with them), and it makes me feel secure there wouldn't be a warranty denial problem. All it costs is $$ - and in the scheme of things, over the life of the warranty - the additional cost is probably about a case of decent beer. Not enough for me to worry about.
YMMV - and use whatever YOU want in YOUR bike, and I'll use what I want in mine.
Rinty
New member
synthetic oil
Besides the cost of the attorney fees which may be necessary to handle the case, an owner will also need to pay the cost of expert witness fees to give evidence about the suitability of the oil. Assuming one can find an expert witness nearby.
And after all of that, the judge hearing the case may not know the difference between a Robertson and Phillips screwdriver.
We have a VW Golf under warranty, and I always phone ahead to the drive through lube place to make sure they have the official filter in stock. Like General Yeager says: "Don't look for trouble."
Rinty
Besides the cost of the attorney fees which may be necessary to handle the case, an owner will also need to pay the cost of expert witness fees to give evidence about the suitability of the oil. Assuming one can find an expert witness nearby.
And after all of that, the judge hearing the case may not know the difference between a Robertson and Phillips screwdriver.
We have a VW Golf under warranty, and I always phone ahead to the drive through lube place to make sure they have the official filter in stock. Like General Yeager says: "Don't look for trouble."
Rinty
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
Again, we are not talking about the "brand" of oil, we are talking about the API classification of the oil. Assuming the engine failure is arguably lubrication related (i.e., not a blown computer, failed alternator bearing, or a broken head stud), and BMW decided to make the oil used an issue, BMW would have already obtained your maintenance records (including the oil you used) in the discovery phase of the litigation. At trial, and assuming you were not planning to lie under oath, the "proof" would go something like this:
Q: Mr. VonBaden, what engine oil did you use in your BMW motorcycle?
A: ABC XXw-YY.
Q: What is the API classification of ABC XXw-YY?
A: SM. (If you say you don't know, they will just put a witness on the stand who will provide the information about ABC XXw-YY.)
Q: What is the API classification specified in your BMW owners manual?
A: SG/SH. (If you say you don't know, they will just put a witness on the stand who will enter the BMW owners manual into evidence and state the API classification specified.)
Q: No further questions, your honor.
BMW would then put a witness on the stand to explain why BMW specifies SG/SH engine oil, and the burden of proof would then almost certainly shift to you to show that the non-SG/SH oil you used is equivalent to the specified SG/SH oil.
Have fun!
Or . . . you could just use an SG/SH oil (pick your favorite brand) until the warranty expires.
