braking vs. down shifting?

BeemerMike said:

but the rationale for a riding style that relies on "downshift-engine braking" over the use of the front brake just eludes me. And even more so if the bike has ABS.

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I don't use "downshift-engine braking" over the use of the front brakes, but it is part of the braking process. Get on a 40 year old bike and ride it around for a while. You too will downshift, pop tendons squeezing the front brake, jump up and down on the rear brake pedal, drag your feet, and start looking for anchors to toss out.

Also, you might be forgetting about brake fade. That is a real problem with drum brakes. "Downshift-engine braking" helps lesson the braking forces which helps keep the drum cool which keeps the little brakes you do have working.

Not everyone learned to ride using modern equipment. Those who learned on the old stuff (or still ride the old stuff) may do things different for good reason.

// marc

marchyman said:

Get on a 40 year old bike and ride it around for a while. You too will downshift, pop tendons squeezing the front brake, jump up and down on the rear brake pedal, drag your feet, and start looking for anchors to toss out.

Also, you might be forgetting about brake fade. That is a real problem with drum brakes. "Downshift-engine braking" helps lesson the braking forces which helps keep the drum cool which keeps the little brakes you do have working.

Not everyone learned to ride using modern equipment. Those who learned on the old stuff (or still ride the old stuff) may do things different for good reason.

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Good point. I should have clarified my comments that they assumed a person's motorcycle had adequate front and rear brakes. However, I suspect that 99% of the people of this forum ride motorcycles with more than adequate front and rear brakes (assuming they are maintained properly), and therefore do not fall under the "antique braking system" exception.

BeemerMike said:

Good point. I should have clarified my comments that they assumed a person's motorcycle had adequate front and rear brakes. However, I suspect that 99% of the people of this forum ride motorcycles with more than adequate front and rear brakes (assuming they are maintained properly), and therefore do not fall under the "antique braking system" exception.

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Maybe that should be 98% of the people here.

BeemerMike said:

This issue of "engine" braking vs. "brakes" braking has come up before (although I'm not sure in regards to rear tire wear). The answer, IMHO, really depends on how significant of braking you are talking about.

If you are talking about bleeding off a little speed for an upcoming corner, or you just need to slow down a little, then rolling off the throttle to engine brake seems appropriate. I just cannot imagine that would have any noticeable impact on rear tire wear compared to the wear from riding in general.

However, if you are talking about getting rid of a lot of speed by downshifting, rolling the throttle off, downshifting, rolling the throttle off, etc., etc., then my question always is WHY are you doing that? Why are you putting the strain and wear on your clutch and drivetrain, and using a braking method that is harder to modulate? If you want to use the rear tire to slow your bike, then your bike is already equipped with an easy to modulate system designed just for the that purpose, which has parts that are easy and cheap to replace when they wear out. It is controlled by that little lever located just under your right foot.

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What he said.

Easy

DarrylRi said:

Maybe that should be 98% of the people here.

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OK, maybe 98%, but that R90S does NOT qualify, nor does that GS hiding in the background!

BeemerMike said:

OK, maybe 98%, but that R90S does NOT qualify, nor does that GS hiding in the background!

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The rear brake on the R90S certainly does fade, on a steep enough hill (my driveway has a 26% grade on part of it and averages over 16%).

The GS is not my bike. (But I'm not going to argue about my R1200ST, either. )

DarrylRi said:

The rear brake on the R90S certainly does fade, on a steep enough hill (my driveway has a 26% grade on part of it and averages over 16%).

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The rear brake on your R90S fades going down your driveway?!

BeemerMike said:

The rear brake on your R90S fades going down your driveway?!

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Darryl has the most diabolical and long driveway I've ever experienced. We were trying to get the RT up that thing, fully loaded and I think I was going to drop it on one of the hairpins.

BeemerMike said:

The rear brake on your R90S fades going down your driveway?!

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Well, it's not only my driveway, I share it with a couple other houses. It's 1/4 mile long and has it's own hairpin. The R90S doesn't fade on that, but when you combine it with the back road from there, which is longer and steeper and often covered with redwood needles and other debris... yes, it is possible to get the brake to fade a bit.

In the older manuals (/2 and earlier) BMW recommended alternating between the front and rear brakes on long down hills. My 1928 R52, with its small front brakes and driveshaft rear brakes, are so inadequate that I wouldn't dare just alternate between them, and I can smoke them both by the bottom of the back road.

X 2!

DarrylRi said:

Well, it's not only my driveway, I share it with a couple other houses. It's 1/4 mile long and has it's own hairpin. The R90S doesn't fade on that, but when you combine it with the back road from there, which is longer and steeper and often covered with redwood needles and other debris... yes, it is possible to get the brake to fade a bit.

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OK, one more time.

1. Significant slowing down (braking) for an upcoming corner (i.e., slowing down in a straight line) - FRONT brake(s), and rear brake as needed (and I know the MSF "rule", so maybe drag the rear brake just to have your foot ready to go if rear braking is needed). If your motorcycle has antique brakes that overheat and fade when you are riding, then it sounds like you probably need to slow down a little, rather than trying to add engine braking to your front and rear brake braking (that's a lot of hand and foot dancing on the controls going on there!).

2. Holding a motorcycle's speed through a downhill corner (especially if the traction is suspect, e.g., the redwood needles) - then OK to downshift to the proper gear ONCE and then use engine compression (instead of the front brake) to keep the motorcycle from increasing speed. But, it is harder to modulate engine braking than rear brake braking, so I would want to use the rear brake in situations where the traction is especially suspect and/or significant engine braking is required, just so I could easily reduce the rear braking if the tire started to slip.

BeemerMike said:

(that's a lot of hand and foot dancing on the controls going on there!).

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You should see Darryl on his R52. Clutch, brake, spark advance lever, fuel lever, and air lever (did I get them all, Darryl?) How he still manages to wave to other riders I'll never know?

But my point wasn't just about those who currently ride old iron. I suspect that those who learned to ride on old iron have different stopping habits than those who learned on bikes with better braking systems.

// marc

marchyman said:

You should see Darryl on his R52. Clutch, brake, spark advance lever, fuel lever, and air lever (did I get them all, Darryl?) How he still manages to wave to other riders I'll never know?

But my point wasn't just about those who currently ride old iron. I suspect that those who learned to ride on old iron have different stopping habits than those who learned on bikes with better braking systems.

// marc

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To paraphrase John Muir, from the famous "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" book: "Brakes apply a negative function. Use them sparingly."

With that in mind and a car with four drum brakes that had to be adjusted regularly by hand, I learned to use brakes when needed, but also to ride at a pace that precludes much braking, even though it might be fairly brisk. Old cars and bikes appreciate smoothness and that continues to pay off on modern bikes, IMHO.

To stir the pot in a bit of a different way; is it either or? Depending on the situation I will do either one or the other or both. There is a trade off, in any case, with impact on the life of the components involved.

The part of the decision process that is missing in the discussion so far is what is being anticipated on the other side of the need to break. Am I coming to a complete stop? If so how quickly do I need to do it? Am I breaking in some fashion to slow down? Am I going to remain at a slower pace after the breaking or might I need to accelerate for some reason to remain safe after the breaking episode?

Within the range of normal use tires, break pads and clutches are expendable items with a life span. I want to get my Roadster and myself to my garage in one piece so I can maintain these items.

I have noticed a flat center section of my tire. Most of my miles are commuting and day to day city driving. I use a combination of engine and brake braking and use more of the former. This seems to allow me to be a smooth rider in most situations. I suspect between engine breaking and where I am driving the where has a bigger impact on my tire life. When I ride longer distances on a regular basis I seem to have rounder tires. The overall life of tires seems to be fairly close, however.

M1ka said:

To stir the pot in a bit of a different way; is it either or? Depending on the situation I will do either one or the other or both. There is a trade off, in any case, with impact on the life of the components involved.

The part of the decision process that is missing in the discussion so far is what is being anticipated on the other side of the need to break.

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Oh, I think we have been discussing different "braking" techniques depending on the situation (e.g., bleeding off a little speed vs. significant slowing down). Sometimes "brake" braking is the preferred way and sometimes "engine" braking is the preferred way. There is just apparently a difference of opinion on the preferred technique for a given situation. Imagine that!

KBasa said:

With that in mind and a car with four drum brakes that had to be adjusted regularly by hand, I learned to use brakes when needed, but also to ride at a pace that precludes much braking, even though it might be fairly brisk. Old cars and bikes appreciate smoothness and that continues to pay off on modern bikes, IMHO.

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And, I had a 1970 VW Beetle, so I remember well adjusting the brake shoes with a screwdriver stuck through that little hole.

marchyman said:

You should see Darryl on his R52. Clutch, brake, spark advance lever, fuel lever, and air lever (did I get them all, Darryl?) How he still manages to wave to other riders I'll never know?

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You missed the hand shift lever and the interesting and very hard to modulate right heel-operated driveshaft brake.

Now, that's entertainment!

But my point wasn't just about those who currently ride old iron. I suspect that those who learned to ride on old iron have different stopping habits than those who learned on bikes with better braking systems.

// marc

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I didn't actually learn on "old iron", unless an R65 qualifies. But, as Freddie Spencer is alleged to have said, it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow.

KBasa said:

To paraphrase John Muir, from the famous "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" book: "Brakes apply a negative function. Use them sparingly."

With that in mind and a car with four drum brakes that had to be adjusted regularly by hand, I learned to use brakes when needed, but also to ride at a pace that precludes much braking, even though it might be fairly brisk. Old cars and bikes appreciate smoothness and that continues to pay off on modern bikes, IMHO.

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The Guide to the VW for the Compleat Idiot was a great book. As a former owner of a VW bug and a current owner of a Prius, what's old is new again. Those same techniques for smoothness now also payback in increased fuel economy.

BeemerMike said:

Oh, I think we have been discussing different "braking" techniques depending on the situation (e.g., bleeding off a little speed vs. significant slowing down). Sometimes "brake" braking is the preferred way and sometimes "engine" braking is the preferred way. There is just apparently a difference of opinion on the preferred technique for a given situation. Imagine that!

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I took a ride yesterday into the hills nearby. I found that I do tend to choose downshifting first to adjust my speed, but I would hardly say that I never used the brakes. It's just a matter of keeping the engine revving where it likes to be, for what I see coming up ahead. If I am going to be going slower -- regardless of the reason why -- it makes sense to be in the right gear and have the motor ready to work for me in that situation.

Also, I've taken several CLASS sessions with Reg Pridmore. He really emphasizes smooth. I don't know if he's still doing it, but he always used to offer a couple laps on the back of his bike. It's true what has been published about him, you simply don't realize that he's changing gears all the time. That must have served him very well when racing an R90S!

I have practiced a bit at shifting smoothly and matching engine to wheel speed -- try shifting up and down from 2nd through 6th while maintaining a constant 50 or 55 mph. I also often will "coast" into a red light or stop sign making the final downshift into 1st and letting that continue to brake the bike.

BeemerMike said:

And, I had a 1970 VW Beetle, so I remember well adjusting the brake shoes with a screwdriver stuck through that little hole.

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My Beetle was also a '70 -- mostly. I found, after holing the #3 piston (it's always the #3 piston) that in fact many of the parts in the collection I had unwittingly bought were from years before and even a few years after that.

KBasa said:

To paraphrase John Muir, from the famous "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" book: "Brakes apply a negative function. Use them sparingly."

With that in mind and a car with four drum brakes that had to be adjusted regularly by hand, I learned to use brakes when needed, but also to ride at a pace that precludes much braking, even though it might be fairly brisk. Old cars and bikes appreciate smoothness and that continues to pay off on modern bikes, IMHO.

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Ah, I'm not alone.

I'd say I'm the smoothest driver(/rider) I know.. None of this jabbing the breaks then flooring the gas nonsense.. it just increases wear, decreases efficiency, etc.