are you tired of the whining?

To answer the original question, the bitching and moaning is really tiresome. It was even mentioned at a club outing we had recently, and a number of us indicated we spend less time here as a result.

dancogan said:

To answer the original question, the bitching and moaning is really tiresome. It was even mentioned at a club outing we had recently, and a number of us indicated we spend less time here as a result.

Click to expand...

+1

I don't see a constant stream of B & M and antagonistic attitudes as part of my desired motorcycling experience.

Motard

knary said:

I think you'd note that many if not most of the so-called whiners have their real names either in their profiles or signatures. It hasn't deterred them.

Click to expand...

Actually - I noted just the opposite. The "whiners" (we can define them as so-called or not) do not have their real names in a SIG. They may have it in the user profile, but an almost constant is - it's lacking from their sigs.

Everytime Gail Hatch puts her two cents into a dirty kitchen, her words usually inspire the offenders to cool thier jets; in addition, it rings SO true:

(I paraphrase) Would you have the balls to say that to someone to their face? Would you have the huevos to say that to them around a campfire? If not, shut the hell up!

I like her style

On other notes, life on the forum is very close to life on the streets; there always will be a surplus of jerks. Where I have issue is when people who I truely enjoy reading their posts have quit because of jerks responding to their posts.

I also need to revisit the tavern proposal; All of us who have been involved in the process of creating a DGT Tavern are respectfully anxious to have a place to discuss issues that the mainstream BMWMOA forum folks might tend to shy away from discussing. Lee, if you have an update, many of us would appreciate knowing where we stand on this proposal. Thank you in advance for some feedback on Steve's (Oldway) proposal.

Dale

tommcgee said:

That's essentially my experience in 15 years of running bulletin boards, but it does happen once in a great while.

Moderation is essential to preserve decorum in any large group, be it Yahoo Groups, old style Usenet, or membership groups like this one.

A very short list of rules works best and no personal attacks should be at the top of the list.

Click to expand...

That's been my experience also - and based on being on-line since before Arpanet times. Dialup BBS's were a good learning place for what is now "forums" and "Yahoo/Google groups" - much the same idea, and the same social interactions. I ran several and learned a lot about network social interaction by doing it. I applied what I learned from that experience, and from just being "on-line" for so long when I started my Yahoo group.

I'll summarize the rules I have for my Yahoo group:

1 - No flames. First rule. Also clearly stated that anyone flaming anyone else will be summarily thrown out of the group. No appeals, no if-and-or buts - do it and you're gone. In almost 7 years, I've never had to enforce that rule.

2 - Intro message. Before anyone can post to the group - they have to first post an introductory message to the group. The intro message has to include a bit of their BMW history, a bit about themselves. It makes a name in a message into a person. Once I see the intro - it's sent to the group and the person is then allowed to post freely. This also has the secondary effect of keeping any and all spammers out of the group.

3 - SIG for every message. The reasons I gave before.

That's the basic rules. Staying on topic is desireable and encouraged..

Are these rules too draconian? Dunno - the group has grown steadily for the past 6-7 years and requires almost no moderation on my part. When someone forgets their "SIG" usually members will remind them. I started the group as an experiment in Internet "civility" and as a reaction to some particularly juvenile and offensive BMW car forums.

Just some thoughts. I realize some people are nervous about their real name being "out on the web.." - dunno why. Mine has been out on the web for about forever in Internet time, and I'm still here. You can Google it as "Don Eilenberger" or "DJ Eilenberger"..

Thanks Lee for addressing this issue head on.

I see the natural tension here between those who desire MOA to change towards the direction of their agenda. When the change is not quickly accepted or reasons given as to why the change will not take place, some members have a hard time dealing with it.

A lot of this revolves around the purpose of MOA. Many members seem to be unaware of that the MOA has clearly stated purpose.

The frustration then sometimes boils over in to criticism of MOA leaders and anyone who is a strong MOA supporter. That is followed up with unfounded accusations.

And then there are always a few folks around who are not happy unless they are unhappy with something.

Self moderation is the ultimate goal. Lacking that, peer moderation would be next and then forum moderation as a last resort.

This is a round about way of answering your question. Yes, if the house needs cleaning, clean it.

I have been a member for 18 months, and I still haven't got a handle on why so many people gripe and whine if someone expresses an opinion contrary to theirs.

How can the misuse of the word "of" in an article provoke 4 or 5 pages of admonishment to the author? (I thought the article was good and I'm too stupid to catch the errors.)

I read other motorcycle forums for ideas and no one else even comes close to the cutting down of people as this forum. The value of forums is the exchange of ideas and experiences. I don't agree with all, but occasionally I do use some ideas. Because I reject an idea, doesn't mean they are bad, just not right for me.

I would have figured that the joke thread would have been more popular, but it seems very few people have a sense of humor.

Ralph Sims

deilenberger said:

Actually - I noted just the opposite. The "whiners" (we can define them as so-called or not) do not have their real names in a SIG. They may have it in the user profile, but an almost constant is - it's lacking from their sigs.

Click to expand...

We manage the site via the forum's database. Any and every member is in there as a login of their choosing and a member#. Every member. Just because somebody pays $32, they don't have a right to know who I am if I don't want them to. The desire to force civility through the requirement of the inclusion of a "real name" isn't sufficient to overcome a person's right to a modicum of privacy.

Remember, while a person can seem to "hide" behind an invented name, there are no fake n00bs here. No one has multiple logins with which they can present different personalities. Who they are is going to be pretty much who they are.

The whiners are whining because that's who they are, because that's part of the culture here and because we let them. They don't whine because they didn't include their name in their signature.

BuddingGeezer said:

I have been a member for 18 months, and I still haven't got a handle on why so many people gripe and whine if someone expresses an opinion contrary to theirs.

How can the misuse of the word "of" in an article provoke 4 or 5 pages of admonishment to the author? (I thought the article was good and I'm too stupid to catch the errors.)

I read other motorcycle forums for ideas and no one else even comes close to the cutting down of people as this forum. The value of forums is the exchange of ideas and experiences. I don't agree with all, but occasionally I do use some ideas. Because I reject an idea, doesn't mean they are bad, just not right for me.

I would have figured that the joke thread would have been more popular, but it seems very few people have a sense of humor.

Ralph Sims

Click to expand...

FWIW, I can't remember the last time a joke thread went anywhere on the BIG other forum I frequent. The funny is in the banter not in the canned jokes.

knary said:

I don't see enough value in a person's real name to overcome their right to a modicum of privacy. I haven't found that real names make people any more or less reasonable on-line. Further, there are some people that frequent these kinds of forums that have a very real need to maintain a small amount of anonymity.

I think you'd note that many if not most of the so-called whiners have their real names either in their profiles or signatures. It hasn't deterred them.

Click to expand...

+1

I believe the behavior is innate to the person. I have participated, along with people that act like jerks, on other boards that require your real name in some way. The behavior of the jerks did not vary greatly form board to board.

Any difference in behavior I have witnessed is much more the result of the social norms of the board and a modicum of policing of agreed on rules than the fact a personÔÇÖs real name is required.

M1ka said:

+1

I believe the behavior is innate to the person. I have participated, along with people that act like jerks, on other boards that require your real name in some way. The behavior of the jerks did not vary greatly form board to board.

Any difference in behavior I have witnessed is much more the result of the social norms of the board and a modicum of policing of agreed on rules than the fact a personÔÇÖs real name is required.

Click to expand...

The nicest compliment that I get from folks is that I'm just like my forum personna. Well, yeah...

SheRidesABeemer said:

The nicest compliment that I get from folks is that I'm just like my forum personna. Well, yeah...

Click to expand...

I'm pretty much me as well. I've been told I'm "warmer" in person, but I think I'm a big sap everywhere.

knary said:

I'm pretty much me as well. I've been told I'm "warmer" in person, but I think I'm a big sap everywhere.

Click to expand...

Define 'big'

username said:

i'm tired of people bitching and whining about the volunteers, board members, and paid staff in unfounded ways. it seems that every so often we get folks hinting or accusing these people of being corrupt, or lazy, or being pawns of BMW.

i think this is part of why people do not volunteer for election or other jobs in our club. i think they think, "i can volunteer my time for the club and take a lot of crap from a bunch of keyboard warriors? it's not worth it."

what say you? do you think our volunteers, elected officials, and office staff should be treated with respect? or is it ok if people use innuendo to kick them around?

Click to expand...

I think respect is something earned, not just because they were voted in.
If a volunteer sucks, and I complain about it, is that whining, or is it a valid point?
Are we to assume everyone voted in or volunteering automatically earns respect , even if they are terrible at what they do? I don't think it is ok to use innuendo to kick somebody around, nor do I think it is ok to belittle members here for any reason. For my part, I treat everyone here as they have treated me. It seems to work out ok for me. I am pretty much the same person in real life, except you can only see my perpetual smile in person.

Rapid_Roy said:

I think respect is something earned, not just because they were voted in.
If a volunteer sucks, and I complain about it, is that whining, or is it a valid point?
Are we to assume everyone voted in or volunteering automatically earns respect , even if they are terrible at what they do? I don't think it is ok to use innuendo to kick somebody around, nor do I think it is ok to belittle members here for any reason. For my part, I treat everyone here as they have treated me. It seems to work out ok for me. I am pretty much the same person in real life, except you can only see my perpetual smile in person.

Click to expand...

By simply volunteering, a person has earned a healthy dose of respect. The more they take on, the more respect they deserve. They can through their words and actions lose some or all that respect, but I do believe they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

knary said:

We manage the site via the forum's database. Any and every member is in there as a login of their choosing and a member#. Every member. Just because somebody pays $32, they don't have a right to know who I am if I don't want them to.

Click to expand...

I don't recall saying the payment of $32 gave them any "rights" - and certainly not to information about me I don't want them to know. I can't call the home-office and ask for contact information about a member (I know because I've been called by the office and asked if it was OK to give mine out..)

But - this $32 also doesn't give them the "right" to hide behind anonymous usernames when attacking other members in MOA owned web forums. The sword cuts both ways.

By the simple act of posting here - you've given up some expectation of privacy. People can search on you by name or username, and facts/patterns will start showing up making you identifable. Signing up for the forums - you've agreed to the terms of service of the forums - and if one of those terms of service was revealing your REAL name, then so be it - it's something people would have to deal with. Right now - by signing up here - your real name is still accessible to the administrators of the website by simply cross-referencing your username with your member number, so the illusion of anonymity is only that - an illusion. One we might do well to eliminate.

The desire to force civility through the requirement of the inclusion of a "real name" isn't sufficient to overcome a person's right to a modicum of privacy.

Click to expand...

Scott - this is a policy? Made by whom? The MOA Board? You? Just saying it's so doesn't make it so. Perhaps some people value civility over a false sense of anonymity or "privacy" (which is quite different than anonymity.) If it is "policy" - is it written anywhere that people can see it?

Remember, while a person can seem to "hide" behind an invented name, there are no fake n00bs here. No one has multiple logins with which they can present different personalities. Who they are is going to be pretty much who they are.

Click to expand...

No argument - who they are is going to be who they are - but using a "username" rather than their own name gives them a sense of anonymity - and the anonymity IMHO is to a large extent the enabling factor to attack other people. People assume since they can sign up on other similar forums with an anonymous username and blast away that the same anonymity exists here. Since it really doesn't - it might be a reasonable idea to make the lack of real anonymity very obvious by requiring real names to be used.

Someone once had a good rule for posting on the Internet: Never post anything you'd be embarrassed to have your mother read. Having your real name attached goes a long ways towards encouraging that behavior.

The whiners are whining because that's who they are, because that's part of the culture here and because we let them. They don't whine because they didn't include their name in their signature.

Click to expand...

That isn't what I said - I didn't say they whine because they didn't include their name in their sig - I said having no name in a sig enables attacks to a great extent.

Most people (and there are always exceptions) don't stand in public showing their underwear IF their underwear has their name emblazoned across it. Whining isn't a big issue to me - it's gonna happen no matter what anyone does and is really a different concern than the unfounded and potentially libelous personal attacks we've recently seen. Whining about BMW isn't going to cause anyone not to volunteer to help the club - a personal attack will.

You've said my idea isn't true, but I don't really see facts to back that up. I invite you to join the group I run - and observe it for yourself. It's not theory - it is how the group dynamics work - for real. Here is the group address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bmwe39 You might even find yourself buying a BMW car..

Is starting a thread whining about whining not just whining squared?


Don,

As has already been mentioned, to post here means you are a member. Non members are prohibited from posting. A list of the members "handles" is on the web site already and a complete list of members is in the club data base FOUO I believe. If you are going to require full disclosure in order to post perhaps we should also require that those who wish to post list their name, date of birth and SSN on a publicly viewed forum. Having a name listed just adds additional vulnerability in an age of rampant ID theft. On the other hand, unless you have access to the logs of members the name could be totally bogus as well.

Visian said:

您抱怨!

Click to expand...

你不聽誰的成員有好東西的話。

Don,
I'm not saying that it isn't true at all. I'm saying that it isn't sufficient to overcome the right people have to some privacy. It should be up to an individual whether or not their name is on display for the world to see in a forum where much is public and that which is private is hidden behind a cheap $32 wall. I start from the presumption that 99% of people aren't going to stand in public in their underwear and that we shouldn't burden everyone to address the 1%.

We already know that some relatively famous people actively ride BMW motorcycles. They've been interviewed in our magazine. They *might* be members. I could look it up, as I have access to that information, but I won't and wouldn't. It's none of my business. It's also none of yours or anyone else in this club.

Motor31 said:

Is starting a thread whining about whining not just whining squared?


Don,

As has already been mentioned, to post here means you are a member. Non members are prohibited from posting. A list of the members "handles" is on the web site already and a complete list of members is in the club data base FOUO I believe. If you are going to require full disclosure in order to post perhaps we should also require that those who wish to post list their name, date of birth and SSN on a publicly viewed forum.

Click to expand...

PLEASE do not distort what I said to prove a point. I didn't say and never have said "full disclosure" - implying that I did is bogus and a distortion. And I would have hoped that could be avoided in this particular discussion.

Having a name listed just adds additional vulnerability in an age of rampant ID theft. On the other hand, unless you have access to the logs of members the name could be totally bogus as well.

Click to expand...

I'd be really curious how you feel having your name known in a restricted access forum adds to your potential identity theft vulnerability since that is part of what my real job is (besides other network administrative tasks..) I suggested before - if you want to know about me - GOOGLE me. My name can be found on search results going back 20+ years, and so far - no one has stolen my identity. You are much more at risk using your credit card at Bob's Stores than by posting your name on every newsgroup or forum you can find.

You're not addressing the point that I was trying to make (obviously not clearly) - that a false sense of anonymity enables the type of attacks we've seen recently.