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Sparkly oil - Final Drive issue
- Thread starter knary
- Start date
J
jingdog
Guest
knary
looking for a coal mine
You tazed yourself.
Look, I'm far from being an "enabler". But as now approaching 50k people are dead in China and 75k in Myanmar, I just can't get all hot and bothered over one mechanical failure in 5 years on an otherwise stellar and wickedly fun bike. On an outrage scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst, I'd give this a 2. And since I buy new bikes about as often as I bend spoons with my mind, I don't wield much influence on BMW.
Aside from buying used BMWs, what are you doing about it?
knary
looking for a coal mine
Send it to him. It'll probably fit nicely and coordinate well with some outrage.
The patterns might clash.
Did I mention how *great* my bike feels?
gsaddict
Pepperfool
For what it's worth I change my FD oil every 10,000 km. It's a pretty harsh environment for 250 ml of oil to be in. The cost is negligible and takes so little time.
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
I don't understand what you're saying.. in a prior post you stated:
Why would BMW have any incentive with your kind of non-customer?
I'm all confused..
You want them to do something and you'll still refuse to pay what they're asking for a bike? Why would they? 
bikerfish1100
New member
employ it judiciously when you re-torque your new paralever bushings at the 600-1,000 mile mark. Tom Cutter states that doing so is critical to achieving full life expectancy from the bushing set.
J
jingdog
Guest
You tazed yourself.
Look, I'm far from being an "enabler". But as now approaching 50k people are dead in China and 75k in Myanmar, I just can't get all hot and bothered over one mechanical failure in 5 years on an otherwise stellar and wickedly fun bike. On an outrage scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst, I'd give this a 2. And since I buy new bikes about as often as I bend spoons with my mind, I don't wield much influence on BMW.
Aside from buying used BMWs, what are you doing about it?
Well maybe if BMW had properly shimmed your FD we wouldnt be having all these people dying in China and Myanmar, now would we?
If I was in charge of BMW Motorcycle Division I would call the Head Of QC into my office. Mustafa I see here in the BMWMOA forums this man knary has had his FD fail early. Mustafa BMW means quality and engineering excellence! We cant have our customers having problems like this! See that it never happens again!
I want you to send knary a coupon good for $500 off a new BMW motorcycle for his trouble!
J
jingdog
Guest
I don't understand what you're saying.. in a prior post you stated:
Why would BMW have any incentive with your kind of non-customer?
I'm all confused..
The same incentive Ford and GM have now that people are buying Toyotas!
knary
looking for a coal mine
A few photos showing a bit of the chattered surface of the bearing races.
Outer race
Notice how the wear is only on part of the surface. I presume it only failed where there was the heaviest or lightest load. This wear covers around 2/5ths of the outer bearing's inner surface. Scary, eh? If you're not familiar with these things, they're supposed to be smooooooth
The inner race
Outer race
Notice how the wear is only on part of the surface. I presume it only failed where there was the heaviest or lightest load. This wear covers around 2/5ths of the outer bearing's inner surface. Scary, eh? If you're not familiar with these things, they're supposed to be smooooooth
The inner race
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
If I was in charge of BMW Motorcycle Division I would call the Head Of QC into my office. Mustafa I see here in the BMWMOA forums this man knary has had his FD fail early. Mustafa BMW means quality and engineering excellence! We cant have our customers having problems like this! See that it never happens again! I want you to send knary a coupon good for $500 off a new BMW motorcycle for his trouble!
I suspect the conversation would be more like this:
"Mustafa, BMW Motorrad is in the high-end motorcycle business, and our job is to maximize profits and shareholder return for BMW AG. If we don't, we may end working for that Chris Bangle guy . . . and nobody wants that. Our job is NOT to build a perfect used motorcycle that never fails for that knary guy over on the MOA forum.
As head of QC, your job is to ensure that BMW motorycles maintain a reliability in line with what we charge for them, including balancing the cost of warranty repairs against the cost of reducing warranty claims and costs. Our goal is to keep people wanting to buy NEW BMW motorcycles, and hopefully keep getting them to pay ever higher prices for them. We don't want people buying those cheap Hondas instead of BMWs. Now, don't try to make a motorcycle that never breaks, or we'll bankrupt the company, and we may end up working for that Chris Bangle guy . . . and nobody . . .."
OK, I'm just making up that Chris Bangle part.
R
RIDEOREGON
Guest
This seems an overstatement and unfair generalization.
Most BMW FDs last more than 50K, and most BMW trannies last more than 66K. Personal anecdotes are poor bases for generalizations like "BMW builds crap." I wonder what percentage of non-BMW motorcycles even live to be 50K....
In truth, most motorcycles don't last that long. In a car, the transmission can be built nearly as beefy as need be. In a motorcycle, there are more severe space and weight issues. We're used to BMW powertrains lasting forever, but these bikes are getting more and more powerful, which add stresses. What was the HP rating of the R27? 18 bhp? And knary's R1200GS? 100 bhp?
Personally, I like knary's attitude. The weather in the Specific NW is beautiful right now, especially on a newly serviced bike that is running like a top. Too nice, in fact, to get all negative about a mechanical failure that came after 50K and has now been fixed to the owner's satisfaction. Ride on, knary!
knary
looking for a coal mine
FWIW, I've got the relatively anemic 1150GS. And I don't really buy the "it's a motorcycle, they're inherently fragile" line. BMW did screw up. This problem in particular does appear to be an avoidable problem. Further, the R12GS final drive issue also appears to be something of a design issue. In both cases, if I understand correctly, the problems are showing up much more here in the states because of the way we tend to ride - fast, long, and in sometimes high heat. I would bet that my final drive's failure began last summer during the 1000 mile dashes across the midwest to and from the rally in 100??F+ heat.
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
It is interesting that apparently both the inner and outer races are pitted and spalled, and that the bearing cage did not disintegrate (Correct?). I suspect that most of the damage you seem to have had is from the contamination being fed thru the bearing in service.
I wonder why the opposing tapered roller bearing was brinelled?
My guess is excessive preload. Others may differ.
We need a better way to diagnose the early stages of failure - maybe via noise? We also need a way to confirm proper preload on reassembly - maybe via a breakout torque spec?
I wonder why the opposing tapered roller bearing was brinelled?
My guess is excessive preload. Others may differ.
We need a better way to diagnose the early stages of failure - maybe via noise? We also need a way to confirm proper preload on reassembly - maybe via a breakout torque spec?
cjack
K Bikes Complex by Choice
When this first happened to the K1200LT bikes, some on that forum diagnosed improper installation of the bearing when the final drive was manufacturered. That the damage was done pressing the bearing into place.
Of course, since these final drive failures were a relatively new occurance for BMW, the weight of the bike and the heat back there seemed the most likely to most of us...that the drive simply wasn't up to it.
I don't know if anything was resolved on the forum about it. Seems to have developed into a cost of riding maintenance item these days.
skyking96w
New member
Diagnose via noise--yes.
"We need a better way to diagnose the early stages of failure - maybe via noise?"
Exactly right, but you probably need to wear a 3/4 helmet and no ear plugs for a short ride every week or so.
Bearing failure will announce itself well in advance of catastrophic failure with a loud hum that varies with road speed and is independent of gear selection or clutch engagement. But you probably won't hear it with ear plugs/speakers, full face helmet, and iPod cranked up.
I might be wrong about the helmet, but I was wearing a 3/4 when I heard mine starting to sing that song.
"We need a better way to diagnose the early stages of failure - maybe via noise?"
Exactly right, but you probably need to wear a 3/4 helmet and no ear plugs for a short ride every week or so.
Bearing failure will announce itself well in advance of catastrophic failure with a loud hum that varies with road speed and is independent of gear selection or clutch engagement. But you probably won't hear it with ear plugs/speakers, full face helmet, and iPod cranked up.
I might be wrong about the helmet, but I was wearing a 3/4 when I heard mine starting to sing that song.
BeemerMike
Republic of Texas
In today's WSJ, on page B1, there is an article about BMW AG and Daimler AG discussing the possibility of teaming up on developing, producing, and purchasing CAR components.
Maybe we can get them to throw MOTORCYCLE components into the agreement, and finally find a solution to the "short-lived FD" issue.
Maybe not . . .
Maybe we can get them to throw MOTORCYCLE components into the agreement, and finally find a solution to the "short-lived FD" issue.
Maybe not . . .
nrpetersen
Curmudgeon
I had in mind a contact microphone epoxied on the FD & an electronic way of listening while driving on a smooth road at modest speed. Walgreens had a super cheap hearing aid for about $14 that has me tempted.
The FD would have to be pretty trashed for you to hear it without amplification and isolation from other noises I'd think.
knary
looking for a coal mine
In today's WSJ, on page B1, there is an article about BMW AG and Daimler AG discussing the possibility of teaming up on developing, producing, and purchasing CAR components.
Maybe we can get them to throw MOTORCYCLE components into the agreement, and finally find a solution to the "short-lived FD" issue.
Maybe not . . .
The issue with the 'old' final drive really does, from what I understand, come down to a spec/install issue, not a design flaw- even if some of the bearing choices are odd.
The new FD's... that may be another story.
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