'02 1150RT engine output shaft/clutch hub failure

'02 1150RT transmission input shaft/clutch hub failure

My 2002 RTP with 32209 miles on the odometer experienced a probable engine output shaft/clutch hub failure - at least that's my guess and the guess of the tech at the dealer upon starting the bike and trying to put her in gear. Tomorrow they'll tear it apart for a definitive assessment of what went wrong.

This preliminary diagnosis comes at a steep price:

$843.91 for parts
$1260.00 for labor
$180.00 to remove and reinstall the crash bars
+ 9% tax for a grand total of approximately $2600.00

According to the tech, if this is indeed the problem, I'll need a new input shaft, clutch hub, main bearings, seals, etc. It's also possible that the workings within the transmission itself have been damaged.

Simply swapping in a used tranny is problematic as it's an RT-P, with an extra short 1st gear. And I'm not sure I want a used tranny from what will almost certainly have to be a police bike. What guarantee is there that a used transmission won't have the same defect?

From what I understand, this is a well-known and quite-common failure for this model/year, yet there is no recall or TSB information regarding this issue. I am unable to locate any manufacturer-recommend service of the output shaft/clutch hub interface, so what causes this failure if not a metallurgy or manufacturing process failure?

Is $2600 a fair price for this work?

Do I have any shot at getting BMW to help with some of the costs here? Sure, I'm out of warranty, but this shouldn't happen on a bike with only 32,000 miles on the clock. It's never been in police service, and I don't think I overtax the bike (I ain't no squid).

I need some consolation, commiseration, sympathy, and to set up a charitable fund to help defray the costs of repairing my beloved bike

I paid $2,000. Mine was a result of a misaligned trans/motor, a manufacturers defect that all BMW techs don't know about.

But BMW does.

I got $500 back, probably the because I frequent my dealer for service. I was out of warranty (26K mi).

i'd say try what you can with NA, sometimes i hear of miraculous things happening, other times, nothing.

but why not remove the crash bars yourself? FWIW, i don't know much about this particular model and it may not be practical. i hate paying the dealer to do anything that is basic disassembly/reassembly work.

i'd also guess by "engine output shaft/clutch hub" failure you mean "transmission input shaft/clutch hub failure". IMHO, everything except replacing the transmission input shaft is doable by an average backyard mechanic. if you can remove the transmission and send it to an expert (and there is at least one who posts here) you can save yourself some serious cash. but i'd say argue with NA first.

sorry for all the acronyms BTW, hahhaha

Doesn't the MOA have a manufacturer's liason or some similarly-titled ombudsman who at least knows what tree to bark up at BMW Motorrad NA?

I'm trying to be diplomatic with my dealer, but that's a lot of dough to me. It's a third of what I paid for the bike 10 months ago. The prior owner bought it on consignment from this dealer two years ago when it had approx. 18,000 miles on it. I bought it at 23,750 and have put almost 10,000 miles on her in 10 months. The original owner bought her new from a dealer in Idaho and proceeded to add every farkle imaginable and available.

To replace this bike with a new RT-P would likely approach $30k., so obviously I'm interested in repairing the bike I own free and clear.

So - does anyone know who I contact within the MOA to get a query/plea started?

I wouldn't expect MOA to help you with BMW of NA. You're on your own here. I have suggested in a number of posts that the MOA have a "meeting" or "dialog" with BMWNA about the spline failure issue. If for no other reason than to get some real information about how often this happens. It seems extremely common on these boards, but this is a select population. I think the MOA should pressure BMW to extend the warranty on the splines. Other brands of bikes have had more serious problems taken care of with extending the warranty under pressure from owners' organizations.

If you are average mechanically, you can do most of the work yourself. My splines on my 2002 RT died at 43,000 miles. I took the tranny off the bike and had a shop replace the input shaft and all the seals. I replaced the clutch disk and put the bike back together. Total cost, about $850 for the repair. There is a good video and I have a procedure checklist for the job, but it may not be the same on the RTP. The biggest problem is trying to figure out the root cause of the failure. I'm not sure anyone knows for certain whether it is really an alignment problem, poor metallurgy, poor lubrication, poor design ( the input shaft is actually too short ), or what. It will probably fail again unless the cause is found.

OfficerImpersonator said:

Doesn't the MOA have a manufacturer's liason or some similarly-titled ombudsman who at least knows what tree to bark up at BMW Motorrad NA?

I'm trying to be diplomatic with my dealer, but that's a lot of dough to me. It's a third of what I paid for the bike 10 months ago. The prior owner bought it on consignment from this dealer two years ago when it had approx. 18,000 miles on it. I bought it at 23,750 and have put almost 10,000 miles on her in 10 months. The original owner bought her new from a dealer in Idaho and proceeded to add every farkle imaginable and available.

To replace this bike with a new RT-P would likely approach $30k., so obviously I'm interested in repairing the bike I own free and clear.

So - does anyone know who I contact within the MOA to get a query/plea started?

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Paul Johnson. He's on the road right now, but try sending him an email or reaching him via telephone. He's listed in the front of ON.

Sadly a common problem with some 1150's
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207014
I got pissed off and had a longer and harder input shaft custom made. The 6 speed splines do not project into the clutch hub far enough. See pages 10 & 11
I was going to sell them but because of the high price I could not get an order together for 10. My prototype is is running great and I plan an inspection next winter. My bike has almost 100,000 miles on it and is on its 3rd shaft. (the upgraded one)
PM me with your phone number and I can fill you in with lots more. The job is not all that hard but certainly tedious.

KBasa said:

Paul Johnson. He's on the road right now, but try sending him an email or reaching him via telephone. He's listed in the front of ON.

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Thanks Dave!

Final diagnosis:

Clutch input shaft failure: $2272

Pivot bearing play in final drive: $113

Worn bearing in side stand: $84

Rear shock reservoir not working - replace rear shock: $765

Right fork seal leaking: $470

$3704 parts/labor
$333 tax
$4037.36 total estimate

Wow, $4K repair bill!

How much did you pay for the bike to begin with?

Motor31 said:

Wow, $4K repair bill!

How much did you pay for the bike to begin with?

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Twice that.

a couple of notes-
1) if you go to replace the pivot bearing (easy enough to do on your own, and has no real job connection to the trans/output job), DO NOT replace with BMW needle bearings; rather, go with the bronze oilite bushing from Rubber Chicken Racing Garage. That is supposed to be a lifetime bushing, rather than a 20K mile set of bearings. Well worth the extra cost (about $120, so if you do it yourself, it's the same cost as having your dealer do it with the inappropriate BMW bearings).
2) rather than replacing the stock BMW shock for $700 something, get a Wilbers or Ohlins- also very much worth the extra dinero.
3) A freaking fork seal replacement for $470 !!!That's a $25 part, and can be done in about 1 hour, max (a least it was on my R11S), once the fairing is off. Get them down on that one, or DIY!- the fairing is already off for the trans job, so they have no reason (other than they want your money more than they think you do) to double charge for that labor. (sheet, that one would piss me off BIG time if they tried to gouge me like that!!)
4) i'll bet the worn sidestand bearing is a simple DIY job as well (but i haven't been there to do it myself, so i don't know for sure).

bikerfish1100 said:

a couple of notes-
1) if you go to replace the pivot bearing (easy enough to do on your own, and has no real job connection to the trans/output job), DO NOT replace with BMW needle bearings; rather, go with the bronze oilite bushing from Rubber Chicken Racing Garage. That is supposed to be a lifetime bushing, rather than a 20K mile set of bearings. Well worth the extra cost (about $120, so if you do it yourself, it's the same cost as having your dealer do it with the inappropriate BMW bearings).
2) rather than replacing the stock BMW shock for $700 something, get a Wilbers or Ohlins- also very much worth the extra dinero.
3) A freaking fork seal replacement for $470 !!!That's a $25 part, and can be done in about 1 hour, max (a least it was on my R11S), once the fairing is off. Get them down on that one, or DIY!- the fairing is already off for the trans job, so they have no reason (other than they want your money more than they think you do) to double charge for that labor. (sheet, that one would piss me off BIG time if they tried to gouge me like that!!)
4) i'll bet the worn sidestand bearing is a simple DIY job as well (but i haven't been there to do it myself, so i don't know for sure).

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I know nothing about fork seals, but it still sounded a bit unusual to me. And why service the right but not the left seal? Shouldn't both be done at the same time?

Yes - I'm sure I can do the side stand bushing replacement - and I'm sure I can do the pivot bearing replacement, but those are small numbers. If the bike is going to be torn apart when the tranny is pulled off the engine, they might as well do it then. I will definitely inquire as to what I'm getting for $470 worth of fork seal repair.

I'd love to install an Ohlins - but IIRC they were four figures just for the part. Not sure I have the budget to go much higher than $4k this particular instance!

Hate to hear about your bike.

I just replaced the fork seals on my GS. The right one was leaking at 78K.
It is pretty straight forward since there are no springs in the tubes. If you have a repair manual you'll be in business. I spent about $50 and a Saturday afternoon.
You can get the BMW repair manual on line for free at Repair manual club

I'm with Bikerfish on the pivot bearing too. Go with the bushings. Paul Glaves did an article in ON a few months ago. Walks right through the whole thing.

If your only replacing the rear shock on the bike Ohlins or Wilbers won't be over $1k. I put on a front and rear, Wilbers ,and it was $1,200 for the pair.
Either ones are rebuildable too.

Good luck!

Kevin

OfficerImpersonator said:

I know nothing about fork seals, but it still sounded a bit unusual to me. And why service the right but not the left seal? Shouldn't both be done at the same time?

Yes - I'm sure I can do the side stand bushing replacement - and I'm sure I can do the pivot bearing replacement, but those are small numbers. If the bike is going to be torn apart when the tranny is pulled off the engine, they might as well do it then. I will definitely inquire as to what I'm getting for $470 worth of fork seal repair.

I'd love to install an Ohlins - but IIRC they were four figures just for the part. Not sure I have the budget to go much higher than $4k this particular instance!

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the fork seals occassionally leak (i had to do my left one 2x in last 10K miles due to a couple of hard pothole type hits, but right one is still original). If they're holding fine, there's no need to replace them, as it is not really considered to be a "wearing" part like on most bikes.

As far as the cost of Ollies or Wilbers; yes, you'll pay more up front, but they will save you $ in the long run, and give you far superior performance forever and ever. Absolutely worth the $. If you do your own fork seals, shock installation and pivot bearing, the money you save there will pay for the shock upgrade (remember, you're not paying $1K + for the upgraded shock, you're only paying for the difference between the overpriced stocker and the upgrade model!!!- now is the perfect time to do it)

bikerfish1100 said:

the fork seals occassionally leak (i had to do my left one 2x in last 10K miles due to a couple of hard pothole type hits, but right one is still original). If they're holding fine, there's no need to replace them, as it is not really considered to be a "wearing" part like on most bikes.

As far as teh cost of Ollies or Wilbers; yes, you'll pay more up front, but they will save you $ in the long run, and give you far superior performance forever and ever. Absolutely worth the $, and if you do your own fork seals, shock installation and pivot bearing, the money you save there will pay for the shock upgrade (remember, you're not paying $1K + for the upgraded shock, you're only paying for the difference between the overpriced stocker and the upgrade model!!!- now is the perfect time to do it)

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I'm accepting donations to pay for your suggestions

I need a

On the phone with "Dan" from BMW NA as I type this. He's taking down all my information. He's going to follow-up with the dealer and confirm what I'm telling him is the straight poop, and he can't make any promises - but... he'll be in touch and let me know what BMW NA is able to do for me.

So, provisionally, I'll include a for BMW NA for getting on top of this right away!!!

whatever you do, don't let them replace that shock with an OEM replacement. at the very least, you can find a slightly used RT rear shock from someone who upgraded on ebay or something. it's 2 bolts to swap it out at a potential savings of around 500 dollars.

i hate to preach the "do it yourself" thing if that's not your game, but 700 bucks or so for a shock that is only "ok" to begin with and will wear out in 40K at best just isn't rational

BubbaZanetti said:

whatever you do, don't let them replace that shock with an OEM replacement. at the very least, you can find a slightly used RT rear shock from someone who upgraded on ebay or something. it's 2 bolts to swap it out at a potential savings of around 500 dollars.

i hate to preach the "do it yourself" thing if that's not your game, but 700 bucks or so for a shock that is only "ok" to begin with and will wear out in 40K at best just isn't rational

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So which one should I consider? Just for fun I browse the Ohlins web site and I think I see four different models for my bike alone. Obviously I need to talk to a tech at the dealer, but I have no idea what I'm talking about/looking for.

OfficerImpersonator said:

On the phone with "Dan" from BMW NA as I type this. He's taking down all my information. He's going to follow-up with the dealer and confirm what I'm telling him is the straight poop, and he can't make any promises - but... he'll be in touch and let me know what BMW NA is able to do for me.

So, provisionally, I'll include a for BMW NA for getting on top of this right away!!!

Click to expand...

I'll hope for the best for you, but don't count your chickens before they're hatched. My 2004 R1150R had a very similar input shaft/transmission bearing failure at just over 3 years old and 55,0000 miles. My BMW dealer diagnosed the failure and talked to the mfgr. rep. about goodwill, etc. BMW was quick to point out that I should go pound sand. I called the customer service folks to inquire on my own, and they took down all my info, called back a week later and reiterated their invitation for me to pound more sand. I'm an adult (41), ridden BMW's for over 200K miles (also rode as a passenger for over 100K), MSF Instructor, and used the bike primarily for sport touring. I got away relatively cheap compared to you at $1,200.

As you said, these parts shouldn't fail until well into the 6 digit odometer readings. Should they fail prematurely, the company should bear some responsibility to make it right, particularly when this is not an uncommon issue. I've filed against BMW in small claims court, so we'll see how that goes. I'm secretly hoping they kick it to superior court, because I'd like to be the first to find out the scope of driveline component failures through the discovery process. A company that makes a "premium product" shouldn't be bashful about standing behind it when things go wrong. They certainly aren't bashful about charging you up front for the priviledge of ownership.

Given BMW's less than enthusiastic support, I recently bought a new Triumph Tiger. Chalk me up as another long time owner who has voted with his feet and wallet.