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Wow I do not know what to think!

RJM2096

New member
I just saw a thread closed by the the forum Gods.

While I am a relativley new member and I can't know of what has happened in the past, I am sure that forums are for discussion. As long as religions, genders, races, and countries are not disparaged I am shocked that a thread would be closed down. Here the culprit was just questioning this forums policies and was stopped dead in his tracks before anyone could agree. What gives?
 
Politics est verboten according to the forum rules, and Rkasal enjoys talking about politics. He is an outspoken conservative, and his threads and posts are considered trolling by many of the members here. So much so, that they complain to the mods who have to deal with the situation. I pretty much just consider the source, and realize we are here because we love BMW's, not because we agree with everybody's opinion all the time. However, some subjects are banned, there is limited free speech here.
 
Are ther limits.

Can we talk about fuels taxes, toll roads, helmet laws, traffic enforcement, smoking bans, noise abatement? Many of those topics are very political in nature?
 
If it's related to motorcycling, have at it. I know I'll welcome it more than the other topics in question.
 
Can we talk about fuels taxes, toll roads, helmet laws, traffic enforcement, smoking bans, noise abatement? Many of those topics are very political in nature?

I think if you look around the forums for a bit you can get a good idea of what is and is not allowed. The doghouse area can be viewed to get a sense of what the moderation team considered to be overboard.

Then use your own judgement. There have been very few bans (only 2 I know of) ever put in place on members which considering the number of members, now just over 4000, is extremly low. When looking at the overall picture you'll see that the ratio of doghoused threads over all is very low.

Also read the forum guidelines posted as stickies at the top of each forum area, then again use your best judgement.

99.9 percent of the time things run pretty smoothly here, but like any large group there are the occational hick-ups.

You'll also find a number of those topics have been discussed here already.

Use the "Grandmother rule", when considering a post, i.e. is this something I would want my family, kids, etc to see.

RM
 
Can we talk about fuels taxes, toll roads, helmet laws, traffic enforcement, smoking bans, noise abatement? Many of those topics are very political in nature?
I think so. I am askeered to find out.
:hide

It's probably best not to, once banned subjects are mentioned, or a political figure, it's off to the doghouse. It is entirely up to the discretion of the moderators, which is directly proportional to the number of complaints they get.
 
we are no longer allowed to discuss or question forum policies or actions of moderators publically.

Moderation, enforcement and management of threads
The moderators for each forum will be the arbiter of this code. They have been chosen because they have good judgment and are expected to exercise it to maintain the forums as an inclusive experience that fosters community.

and if you have a problem with this...

Concerns & Complaints
Moderators are all volunteers, they are not perfect and as often as folks turn a bright line quite grey there will be moderation results that seem inconsistent. If you have a complaint or feel you’ve been treated unfairly just drop a line to the Forum Liaison at liaison@bmwmoa.org (it will help to have a complete explanation of your thoughts with links to specific threads and posts.)


+1

Seriously. Except when the forum liason has decided to be the one cleaning house. Then if you question that....that has not been clearly defined.
 
A question.

Dave, I am not looking for a fight here but I am trying to get a feel for what you are trying to achieve. Yesterday I read the thread to lurkers inviting them to come in and join the group. I believe it was an attempt to promote the club and encourage new members to join. I think you were sincere and well motivated.

Today, for the second time that I am aware of, you have told people that Adv rider is the place to go to discuss politics. On the surface that is fine however, from a different perspective, it could be construed as an invitation to leave.

I think a situation is developing which if not addressed, is going to be a substantial issue and it doesn't need to be. I recognize that in the banning of RKasal the forum leadership have made a point. I recognize that Randy was a great oppurtunity to "make an example of" and I am fairly certain that it was done to nip the growing discontent in the bud. I think that there ar a large number of people, I think RJM2096 is a good example, who are starting to question what the hecks going on.

The BMWMOA is growing. I hope that it will continue to do so. Part of the challenge both the MOA has and even BMW themselves have, is the perceived image of the brand and it's riders. For years many riders of other brands have perceived BMW riders as somewhat stodgy and exclusive. As those riders are looking for alternatives to their Honda/Yamaha/HD etc., they are starting to buy into the BMW thing. Those same riders are dipping their toes into the MOA pool to try us out. With growth is going to come change. Unless we adapt to that change, things will not turn out so well and the growth cycle will be reversed and the people trying us out will go other places (like ADVrider as you suggested).

There seems to be enough members who would like to broaden the topics of discussion available here, on the MOA site, to makethe concept worth further investigation. I don't think the DGT forum did that. I think unfortuantely it was doomed to failure from the start due to the manner it was initialized.

There is a group striving to come up with a proposal within MOA guidelines for such a forum area right now. The invitation to join, participate, or just hang out within the group has been extended to all members of the MOA. The group runs the gammut from the extreme malcontents to some pretty middle of the road very Pro-MOA people. We have not seen or heard from you within that group although I am sure you are aware of it's existance.

If there is a desire for a forum that is more open to discussion of some very timely issues, isn't it worth investigating? On the MOA_DGT Yahoo group page the following header is posted:

"The bottom line is you tend to talk politics and controversial subjects with friends. I know I have met more people through DGT than on the rest of the forum, primarily because the subject matter does reveal alot more about a person. That's how friendships are made and friendships are what grow clubs."

Maybe the BMWMOA leadership can enter into this process with the goal fo recognizing a need for growth within our formats to match the growth within our numbers. The process has become very adversarial and I don't believe it needs to be. Yes there are always going to be malcontents, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just like yesterdays post to lurkers was a sincere effort to offer something of value to the club, this type of forum area can be too.

I know that is winter and we all get cranky in winter because of the cabin fever. It would be easy to write this current debate off as a symptom of that, but in this case I don't believe it is true. I think it is an issue of growth for the club and an oppurtunity (like the new GS series 650's are for BMW) to offer some new benefits to members and potential members alike and maybe find new ways to grow.

The emotions are high right now an hopefully people who read this will kick back, take a moment to catch there breath, and think about it objectively. I am available by PM or open forum if anyone wants me to clarify my thoughts.

Nuff said, gotta go do that working for a living thing.
 
Thanks, Steve.

I think the basic point I'm trying to make is that this is a motorcycle club. There are better places to talk politics on the internet, but none better to discuss BMW motorcycles, BMW people and BMW rallies and events.

While it might be enticing to run a political forum, the inherent divisiveness, particularly in today's highly charged climate, that comes from such discussions is at odds with what we're trying to achieve as a club. Remember that I was an advocate of DGT until it was taken over by a vocal few and started consuming more and more of the moderators' time and resources.

I don't think it's realistic to expect this forum to be all things to all people, particularly with regard to politics.

More importantly, though, I'm concerned that the attitudes and behaviors shown on this forum have had an effect on this club's ability to attract leadership. At least four people declined nomination after viewing the forum over the last couple of months. The question we need to ask is at what point does behavior on the forum by a small and vocal few affect the larger membership's ability to have an effectively lead organization?

This situation troubles me deeply. If we have leadership that feel that their considerable volunteer commitments seem to include being publicly drawn and quartered at every opportunity, how successful will we be in bringing in visionaries and their ideas?

Yes, I realize that ideas come from the membership. I was a part of getting this forum going and have been one of its strongest, long time proponents. But when ideas come in through the front window tied to a brick, I think we can all agree that rational discussion doesn't usually follow such a proposal.

We're trying to get to less brick throwing without squashing the ability for ideas to shine through. And getting there requires limits that are set and enforced by the mod team. I think they're doing a great job.

I think that some folks, unsure that they're going to be heard, just reach in the toolbox for the biggest hammer they've got as their first resource. I don't know why that is. Maybe they want to make a big splash. Maybe they want to start something. Maybe they just simply lack the written skills to write something more coherent and reasoned.

If you've got ideas, I'm not hard to find. Send me a note. Send one of the committee chairs a note. Send someone on the board a note. Call them. All the contact information that any member needs to reach out to just about anyone involved in the operation and governance of the club is listed in the front of ON or on this site.

And lets face it. How many of us propose great ideas by tying them to a brick and chucking them through the bosses window and expect to be taken seriously?

Best,

dave
 
Posting in a manner that will lead to a fight for the sake of causing trouble.
 
Bad Person

I would agree "trolling" is not a positive for the forum.

A quote from the Seinfeld show "He (Jerry) is bad person, a very, very bad person". ;)
 
Posting in a manner that will lead to a fight for the sake of causing trouble.
I would also add, that you have to be aware of what makes others angry. If you are not aware, it can't be trolling, IMO.

For example, if I say Harley sucks(I don't really think that, and it would appear lowbrow), that is my opinion, and many members here would ask me why and state their reasons why I am wrong. Any reasonable person could then see that is an inflammatory statement to some here, but it really wasn't posted as a way to start a fight. I would also have had no idea so many HD riders would be posting on a BMW forum.
If you said it a second time, that would be trolling, IMO.
 
a few thoughts...

Yes BMW owner have suffered from a certain conception by others that we are stogy even elitist, just as HD riders continue to labor under the image of ÔÇ£bad boys in LeatherÔÇØ some things will never change or change very slowly, but adding hot button topics to our forums does not seem, in my view, to be a solution. Nor do I think new BMW owners come here looking for that sort of experience or that it would attract new members in general be they new or existing BMW owners.

And yes I agree that friends will discuss politics and such among themselves but its been my experience that those sort of subjects come about AFTER one develops those friendship not as part of the initial formation of such relationships. One also has to consider that those discussions are usually among a small number of friends, when was the last time someone can say they held such discussions among a group of 4000 + ÔÇ£friendsÔÇØ? Add to that the inherent anonymity of the Internet where one can ÔÇ£get away" with saying things without the consequences inherent in a face to face and I think argument for such topics being a good idea for the MOA loses some merit.

The suggestion made that there are other places more geared to politics and such seem to be read by some as an ÔÇ£invitationÔÇØ to leave outright, which I do not see as valid, rather I read it merely for what it is, a pointer to a more appropriate place for such discussions while continuing to use this group as a place for those topics for which this forum was set up. If I want Thai food I donÔÇÖt go to an Italian restaurant any more than I would go to an Mexican place for a quick burger, fries and a coke. WhatÔÇÖs wrong with having different places for different venues? Seems to me thatÔÇÖs pretty much in keeping with way life works in general.

Lastly I note that a number of folks keep referring to a ÔÇ£significantÔÇØ ÔÇ£largeÔÇØ or what have you, group of individuals looking for this greater openness in topics, or ÔÇ£largeÔÇØ number of departing members or a ÔÇ£significantÔÇØ drop in postings. I see no such data, rather it still appears to remain a rather small group asking such and I have seen no great reduction in numbers overall. Again we must consider the majority, be they silent or otherwise. I hear the same thing said about voting, how a minority can put someone in power because they voted while the "silent majority" does nothing. Well then if they remain silent someone has to act in their interests, that is part of the function of the moderators. If the majority (the real majority) wants hot button topics they need to make their voices heard, until then the moderators can only go by the current rules and their own interpretation of what best serves the whole, at least until such time as the majority make it known they want it otherwise. We are not inflexible even if some would claim otherwise.

So thatÔÇÖs my take based on what I've seen here and my many years on the net. I've been on it one way or another since BEFORE the web was even around, anyone else remember "Lynx"? the first UNIX based web browser that didn't even have "inline" graphics? Point here is that I've seen some of these discussions going around for years and the consensus always seems to boil down to the fact that some things simply do not work well on the net as they might "in person".

RM
 
......
The suggestion made that there are other places more geared to politics and such seem to be read by some as an ÔÇ£invitationÔÇØ to leave outright, which I do not see as valid, rather I read it merely for what it is, a pointer to a more appropriate place for such discussions while continuing to use this group as a place for those topics for which this forum was set up. If I want Thai food I donÔÇÖt go to an Italian restaurant any more than I would go to an Mexican place for a quick burger, fries and a coke. WhatÔÇÖs wrong with having different places for different venues? Seems to me thatÔÇÖs pretty much in keeping with way life works in general.
I agree with that in general. However, in my time as a forum member, I have seen a photography section spring up. I don't want to see it leave, it is somewhat related to motorcycles, but if enough members complain, it will be gone. There is the NASCAR thread in Campfire, also not related to motorcycles except that some people who ride them are fans. We can all agree there are better places on the 'net to talk about these thing than here. The fact is, we have a diverse membership, and these comments in the campfire section are exactly what you would hear around a campfire, it isn't always just about motorcycles.

The problem is that some feel threatened by others opinions, or really dislike conflict, especially in the forbidden subjects here. That was DGT, and I feel conflict is a part of life, however unpleasant, like death. They will also do so at rallies, and when ever people start shouting around the campfire, I get up and leave. It doesn't really matter what they are saying. Some people cannot talk about these topics without shouting or name calling, which is ludicrous to me as it is all based on opinion and perception. The mods were beaten down by complaints, many by people offended by thread titles, who didn't even post their opinions, but felt theirs were threatened. It appears that they take themselves, and others, way too seriously, to get that upset by some words typed on the internet.

IMO, if it bothered you, don't go there, get upset, and then complain. Walk away.
Better yet, give a reasonable discourse as to why that person is wrong, leaving emotion out of it. Just my .02. I understand why DGT left, and I realize nobody will be happy if it came back, except for those members not uncomfortable with conflict, or threatened by opposing opinions. I am not sure if that is a minority , or not.
 
I think the basic point I'm trying to make is that this is a motorcycle club. There are better places to talk politics on the internet, but none better to discuss BMW motorcycles, BMW people and BMW rallies and events.

IMHO the statement above says it all. This is a forum about BMW motorcycles. If someone(s) needs to discuss politics there are a lot of other places to do that on the internet. The moderators have other things to do with there time so knocking out one or two 'agitators' to calm things down and make things simpler is not a crime. I belong to a number of other forums on a variety of topics and whenever 'pure' politics gets introduced somewhere trouble usually follows. I think the moderators are doing a great job, especially considering the salary! :drink I will admit to a bit of bias on that last statement as I was a moderator once on a different site in the past. That site also tried setting up a separate forum for political discussions (I did not moderate that thankfully) which ended up spilling into other forums which eventually caused the site admin/owner to close the entire thing down. Better to just say this is about BMW motorcycles and risk offending a few than to have the whole thing go down in flames.

OK, I'm going to back to lurking around and hoping that spring comes soon!
 
I agree with that in general. However, in my time as a forum member, I have seen a photography section spring up. I don't want to see it leave, it is somewhat related to motorcycles, but if enough members complain, it will be gone. There is the NASCAR thread in Campfire, also not related to motorcycles except that some people who ride them are fans. We can all agree there are better places on the 'net to talk about these thing than here. The fact is, we have a diverse membership, and these comments in the campfire section are exactly what you would hear around a campfire, it isn't always just about motorcycles.

The problem is that some feel threatened by others opinions, or really dislike conflict, especially in the forbidden subjects here. That was DGT, and I feel conflict is a part of life, however unpleasant, like death. They will also do so at rallies, and when ever people start shouting around the campfire, I get up and leave. It doesn't really matter what they are saying. Some people cannot talk about these topics without shouting or name calling, which is ludicrous to me as it is all based on opinion and perception. The mods were beaten down by complaints, many by people offended by thread titles, who didn't even post their opinions, but felt theirs were threatened. It appears that they take themselves, and others, way too seriously, to get that upset by some words typed on the internet.

IMO, if it bothered you, don't go there, get upset, and then complain. Walk away.
Better yet, give a reasonable discourse as to why that person is wrong, leaving emotion out of it. Just my .02. I understand why DGT left, and I realize nobody will be happy if it came back, except for those members not uncomfortable with conflict, or threatened by opposing opinions. I am not sure if that is a minority , or not.

Quite right it is, but it doesn't have to permeate every part of your life. One of the reasons I'll just get up and go for a ride, to get away from it for a while, or as you say while at a campfire just leave and go somewhere else if things take a turn for the worst or you just are not interested in listening for whatever reason. but that is still somewhat differant than on a forum, you can't help but at minimum see the thread titles, or in the case of DGT just knowing its there seemed upset a number of folks. And saddly its also true that some simply can't resist "peeking" and then get upset. In the end though much of it had to do with things going sour, innuendos and heightened emotions coming into play that shut things down on DGT and other places here. It seems to work better in other forum groups, as to why I can't say, but it just didn't seem to come off well here for whatever reasons.

Obviously we all have our own views on this and sometimes keeping the "big" picture in prospective is a difficult task, hopefully we will learn from this experience, only time will tell.

RM
 
An interesting Conundrum

Would the forum allow discussion of one of the Nation's foremost writers on free speech and the working of the Supreme Court?

I am thinking specifically of:

Anthony Lewis
Freedom for the Thought That We Hate

But this is not a comprehensive narrative history of the development of the modern First Amendment; Lewis already provided that in his 1991 book, "Make No Law." Instead, it is a passionate if discursive essay that ranges across a variety of free speech controversies - from sedition and obscenity to hate speech and secret wiretapping. This may seem like winner's history, but the victories Lewis celebrates remain controversial. There are persistent voices, in Europe and America, that continue to argue for suppressing hate speech on university campuses, for example; Lewis rightly applauds the fact that American courts have rejected their arguments.

The answer would seem to be an emphatic , NO! Probably banning it for good reason but it would seem that such discussion would be told to:

Take it elsewhere.
 
A fair answer Dave, thanks for the quick response. Hopefully the efforts that are made within the system will calm down the whole situation. I also believe that is the correct way to lobby for, and possibly effect, change. I am glad that it is available.

I also commend the Mods for their time and dedication, I know that time is volunteer and not always easy. I would ask that if and when a proposal is made to the forum team, we can make it with the spirit of working together rather than oppossed. And if at that time the MOA decides there is still no place for this type of disscussion, so be it.

Thanks, Steve.

I think the basic point I'm trying to make is that this is a motorcycle club. There are better places to talk politics on the internet, but none better to discuss BMW motorcycles, BMW people and BMW rallies and events.

While it might be enticing to run a political forum, the inherent divisiveness, particularly in today's highly charged climate, that comes from such discussions is at odds with what we're trying to achieve as a club. Remember that I was an advocate of DGT until it was taken over by a vocal few and started consuming more and more of the moderators' time and resources.

I don't think it's realistic to expect this forum to be all things to all people, particularly with regard to politics.

More importantly, though, I'm concerned that the attitudes and behaviors shown on this forum have had an effect on this club's ability to attract leadership. At least four people declined nomination after viewing the forum over the last couple of months. The question we need to ask is at what point does behavior on the forum by a small and vocal few affect the larger membership's ability to have an effectively lead organization?

This situation troubles me deeply. If we have leadership that feel that their considerable volunteer commitments seem to include being publicly drawn and quartered at every opportunity, how successful will we be in bringing in visionaries and their ideas?

Yes, I realize that ideas come from the membership. I was a part of getting this forum going and have been one of its strongest, long time proponents. But when ideas come in through the front window tied to a brick, I think we can all agree that rational discussion doesn't usually follow such a proposal.

We're trying to get to less brick throwing without squashing the ability for ideas to shine through. And getting there requires limits that are set and enforced by the mod team. I think they're doing a great job.

I think that some folks, unsure that they're going to be heard, just reach in the toolbox for the biggest hammer they've got as their first resource. I don't know why that is. Maybe they want to make a big splash. Maybe they want to start something. Maybe they just simply lack the written skills to write something more coherent and reasoned.

If you've got ideas, I'm not hard to find. Send me a note. Send one of the committee chairs a note. Send someone on the board a note. Call them. All the contact information that any member needs to reach out to just about anyone involved in the operation and governance of the club is listed in the front of ON or on this site.

And lets face it. How many of us propose great ideas by tying them to a brick and chucking them through the bosses window and expect to be taken seriously?

Best,

dave
 
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