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Thread: Do not downshift..... do not

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by torags View Post
    I posted to ventilate, not to ask advice on how to operate a motorcycle, read the words. BTW I was wrong about the downshifting, thank goodness - my habit can continue.
    I'm not sure what your "downshifting habit" into/in corners really is. Hopefully you are not downshifting to slow the bike down for a corner instead of using the brakes (although a little throttle roll-off to bleed a little speed off is OK). As somebody said earlier, that's what the brakes are for.
    Mike White
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  2. #32
    Seattle-area Rounder OfficerImpersonator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torags View Post
    Give me a break. I didn't ask for your advice on how to operate a motorcycle which I have been doing since 1965 (dirt & hardtop).

    Frankly I'm not interest in your car history since individuals driving vary so much.

    It might occur to you, I know more about cars/motos than you do.

    end of rant.
    Dude - you're the one who posted that your shifting cost you $2K in repairs. Don't get mad at us when we ask you if perhaps you're not operating your bike correctly.

    You came here asking for advice. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the free advice you came here to get.
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  3. #33

    Smile OK...I Can't Hold Back Anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by BeemerMike View Post
    I'm not sure what your "downshifting habit" into/in corners really is. Hopefully you are not downshifting to slow the bike down for a corner instead of using the brakes (although a little throttle roll-off to bleed a little speed off is OK). As somebody said earlier, that's what the brakes are for.
    Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike..

    Geee Wheeezzz...[insert much stronger invective]...I really could care less how anyone rides their bike...that is their business...but don't shut the door on riders that downshift and brake separately or concurrently to slow down...a lot of fine racers and road riders set up their bikes for corners or surface changes by using both the transmission and brakes...to say that brakes are cheaper than transmissions is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" meaningless comments...

    Good grief folks take a wider view...like Anton said the transmission has to be downshifted at some point...and excellence in riding would dictate that you use ALL the tools in the box...brakes and transmission to name only two..

    Ps...If my BMW will not hold up under decelerating via downshifting...I need to get a different bike..Hey, anybody what to discuss double-clutching or shifting without using the clutch?
    Phil
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  4. #34
    Seattle-area Rounder OfficerImpersonator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
    Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike..

    Geee Wheeezzz...[insert much stronger invective]...I really could care less how anyone rides their bike...that is their business...but don't shut the door on riders that downshift and brake separately or concurrently to slow down...a lot of fine racers and road riders set up their bikes for corners or surface changes by using both the transmission and brakes...to say that brakes are cheaper than transmissions is one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" meaningless comments...

    Good grief folks take a wider view...like Anton said the transmission has to be downshifted at some point...and excellence in riding would dictate that you use ALL the tools in the box...brakes and transmission to name only two..

    Ps...If my BMW will not hold up under decelerating via downshifting...I need to get a different bike..Hey, anybody what to discuss double-clutching or shifting without using the clutch?
    Downshifting is a valuable speed management tool - but you should be careful under what circumstances you use it.

    For example, when using engine compression to slow a bike, your rear brake light is not activated. Vehicles behind you have no way of knowing you're slowing down. My RT has tremendous engine braking power, and I can slow from 70 mph to a crawl using only engine compression very quickly - but a driver behind me would have no idea I was slowing down unless they were looking for clues other than my brake light.

    So - even if engine braking is your preferred option, you might consider lightly activating your brake light in order to warn drivers behind you that you're slowing/stopping.
    Seattle, WA
    2012 R1200GSA
    2002 R1150RT-P
    1992 K75S sold

  5. #35
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  6. #36
    BUBBAZANETTI
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvandkq View Post
    Downshifting is a valuable speed management tool - but you should be careful under what circumstances you use it.

    For example, when using engine compression to slow a bike, your rear brake light is not activated. Vehicles behind you have no way of knowing you're slowing down. My RT has tremendous engine braking power, and I can slow from 70 mph to a crawl using only engine compression very quickly - but a driver behind me would have no idea I was slowing down unless they were looking for clues other than my brake light.

    So - even if engine braking is your preferred option, you might consider lightly activating your brake light in order to warn drivers behind you that you're slowing/stopping.

    without a doubt! i usually just pulse the handbrake lightly while downshifting, just to get people's attention......

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post
    Comments are not aimed at BeemerMike but the concept of not using your engine compression to slow bike...
    I never said not to ever use engine compression to slow down a bike. In fact, I said just the opposite.

    My point was not to use DOWNSHIFTING and engine compression braking as a SUBSTITUTE for using your wheel brakes when you have to really slow down (and if you have to downshift for a corner to get the correct corner speed, then you are probably in a situation of having to really slow down). If you are riding along at a good clip in 5th gear and need to lose a lot of speed for a corner, and as you approach a corner you downshift to 4th, let the clutch out to slow the bike some, then downshift to 3rd, let out the clutch to slow the bike more, and so on without using the wheel brakes, then IMHO that is bad riding technique. You should be using the wheel brakes to slow the bike down and downshifting to the gear you will need to accelerate through and out of the corner. The wheel brakes are much easier to modulate than trying to balance the the clutch and throttle as weight transfers to the front and unloads the rear wheel (which of course causes some potential problems with engine compression braking).

    However, if you are riding along and need to bleed off a little speed for a corner, then sure, roll off the throttle a little and let the engine slow the bike down.

    Of course, it's everyone's own butt and bike on the line out there, so downshift and engine brake all you want to!
    Last edited by BeemerMike; 02-02-2008 at 12:45 AM.
    Mike White
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by billpierce View Post
    If I can't down shift my BMW without breaking it, I'll sell it and by something more durable.

    Transmission miss alignment is well documented and most likely the cause. IMHO.

    +1, good point Bill, and it is what I'm wrestling with right now.

    2004 R1150R.......55,000 touring miles.........fragged bearing in the transmission carrying the input shaft..........dry, severely worn splines on clutch portion of input shaft necessitating clutch plate replacement...........experienced rider who uses appropriate level of engine braking when riding.

    Dealer and I noticed that the splines were bone dry, most likely little or no lube straight from the factory. I dunno which failure came first (transmission bearing or clutch splines), but I can surmise it is a misalignment issue, unless no spline lube from the factory was the main culprit. On a related note, the fiber part of the clutch plate had plenty of meat on it when removed, so no clutch abuse. As expected, BMW denied any warranty or goodwill coverage even though the bike was barely 3 years old, and the parts that failed had no requirement (or expectation) to be regularly serviced.

    As it so happens, I was planning to purchase a new ride for this spring, but it is doubtful that it will be another BMW. I'm not trying to be a hater of the bikes, I enjoy their power characteristics, and the "feel" of the chasis, but I'm not too fond of the company itself in relation to their quality control or treatment of the customer.

    YMMV.

  9. #39
    Rally Rat torags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorcyclist View Post
    +1, good point Bill, and it is what I'm wrestling with right now.

    2004 R1150R.......55,000 touring miles.........fragged bearing in the transmission carrying the input shaft..........dry, severely worn splines on clutch portion of input shaft necessitating clutch plate replacement...........experienced rider who uses appropriate level of engine braking when riding.

    Dealer and I noticed that the splines were bone dry, most likely little or no lube straight from the factory. I dunno which failure came first (transmission bearing or clutch splines), but I can surmise it is a misalignment issue, unless no spline lube from the factory was the main culprit. On a related note, the fiber part of the clutch plate had plenty of meat on it when removed, so no clutch abuse. As expected, BMW denied any warranty or goodwill coverage even though the bike was barely 3 years old, and the parts that failed had no requirement (or expectation) to be regularly serviced.

    As it so happens, I was planning to purchase a new ride for this spring, but it is doubtful that it will be another BMW. I'm not trying to be a hater of the bikes, I enjoy their power characteristics, and the "feel" of the chasis, but I'm not too fond of the company itself in relation to their quality control or treatment of the customer.

    YMMV.

    It was transmission misalignment. It is a manufacturer defect. BTW I have 28,000 miles on the bike 2004 R1150RS.

    The tech told me he has had a few of them and it took a long time for them (BMW) to figure it out. The tech said it would never happen again since he changed the casting.

    I wondered how the tech could order parts before he took it apart. I'm going to try to get BMW to pay for all or some of it.

    Consider having it fixed and suing them in small claims court. A company who charges a premium for their product & service should be held to a higher standard.

    In my case, I will request with certified mail and if they don't respond I'll serve them. I'm not going to play with this, let the judge make a decision since we have a dispute.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by torags View Post
    It was transmission misalignment. It is a manufacturer defect. BTW I have 28,000 miles on the bike 2004 R1150RS.

    The tech told me he has had a few of them and it took a long time for them (BMW) to figure it out. The tech said it would never happen again since he changed the casting.

    I wondered how the tech could order parts before he took it apart. I'm going to try to get BMW to pay for all or some of it.

    Consider having it fixed and suing them in small claims court. A company who charges a premium for their product & service should be held to a higher standard.

    In my case, I will request with certified mail and if they don't respond I'll serve them. I'm not going to play with this, let the judge make a decision since we have a dispute.

    Please let me know how you make out. I have a formal letter in to them as well, and am awaiting a response. The day I see a pig fly, is the exact date that I expect to receive a reply

  11. #41
    Rally Rat torags's Avatar
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    Yeah really.

    I think its prudent to send a letter with return receipt, so if you need to prove its delivery you can.

    Generally mention a reasonable period for a response (10days?) and if they don't respond, serve them. It's then past you being a gentleman

    You have to be damaged (out of pocket). That's why I'm paying for it tomorrow on pick up, then we can dance.

    Good luck.

    Rags

  12. #42
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    My 94 RS has 127,000+ miles on it and I am an avid "downshifter", which likely explains why I have only replaced the front brake pads twice and rears once. Also, I am a very effective "braker" so I do know how to really use my brakes. I agree with others, that it is FAR more an issue of maintainance and technique.

    In those 127,000+ miles I have had the tranny out four times, twice for warranty issues, twice for clutch work, and I do almost all my own work. BMW NA gave me a new, in the box, 96 spec tranny at 60,000 miles and it is going stronger than ever.

    To each his/her own style, but I will continue to downshift as I have done, especially when I am riding my "pace" and in the flow of the back roads and twisties.
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  13. #43
    K Bikes Complex by Choice cjack's Avatar
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    Call BMW customer service. Carefully explain the problem with your BMW, the fix, and the cost you incurred. Ask for warranty consideration and note that you have maintained the motorcycle as per the owners manual. Name the dealer(s) you have had do the maintenance (not a prerequsite, but almost always results in a favorable result when the warranty time/mileage has expired). Encourage them to call those dealers and the repairing dealer and have the dealer explain the manufacturing defect to them (they will make these calls anyway).
    I have known this to result in compensation from BMW.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjack View Post
    Call BMW customer service. Carefully explain the problem with your BMW, the fix, and the cost you incurred. Ask for warranty consideration and note that you have maintained the motorcycle as per the owners manual. Name the dealer(s) you have had do the maintenance (not a prerequsite, but almost always results in a favorable result when the warranty time/mileage has expired). Encourage them to call those dealers and the repairing dealer and have the dealer explain the manufacturing defect to them (they will make these calls anyway).
    I have known this to result in compensation from BMW.
    Thanks for the advice cjack, and in my case, that has all been done. I have the old parts, and even the oil that was drained out of the transmission (BMW hypoid gear oil). I have offered to have them inspect the parts (in my presence), as did the dealer when the bike was in the shop. My family has a 45 year relationship with the dealership owner, so I believe they fought as much as they could for me. We'll see what happens. As has been said before, any product can fail, but how the company deals with the failure determines their true organizational character and whether or not a customer will do business with them again. Having been around BMW's since 1970, I have a pretty good idea of how they will deal with this unless their hand is forced.

  15. #45
    A brief technical note. Brand new precise splines keep the clutch disk centered in use. As splines wear slop develops in the fit of the splines. So pull the clutch lever with the bike in gear and stationary, releasing the clutch, and gravity can cause the clutch disk to drop slightly off center. Then as soon as the disk is again grasped by the pressure plate/clutch cover it can remain slightly uncentered. This exerts incresed radial loading on the input shaft front bearing. So worn splines can cause or accelerate front bearing failure.

    Whether the cause of the spline wear is angular misalignment, radial misalignment, or lack of lubrication - I would suspect the spline wear led to the bearing failure in the case cited above.
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