FD Failure _Dealer Explaination

TGA57589 · Oct 21, 2007

R1200rt 2007

I just bought a 2007 R1200RT on the delivery date I asked the service rep if he knew of any problems the new bikes had. I specifically asked him about the final drive and he said they think it is resolved although with German engineering the backlash was was not enough in manufacture. I now have my 600 miles on my bike and they had asked to see it for it's once over and yes they change the final drive oil which being a mechanic tells me they must be looking for metal in the oil although depending on how low the drain is you won't see it anyway and as for the oild be used up so to speak that won't be the story either. I pretty much don't have a problem with changing my final oil with a motor oil change if need be because let's face it $7-8 bucks for oil is'nt going to break me since I've chosen a Beemer anyway. By the way I traded a R1100RT '96 on this new bike for no other reason than I liked the new whistles and bells of an '07. When I test rode a the GT and the RT I knew I would end up buying just for the way the brakes worked and how smooth it shifted. I'm 6'3" and I can sit and touch my feet well but I bet guys a little shorter are having a fit and even I had to get bar backs to give my old back a break. This is my 2nd RT having ridden Honda for some time and even a lapse of no bikes but I ride everyday now and often wonder how I got away for that lapse. I have never riden the bike of the large group although I have riden a couple Victory's and obviously I bought a new RT so I guess that say's something. I been an MOA for about 3 yrs. now and just look around here and thank all who post such good information.

gulfcoastbeemer · Nov 5, 2007

Rob Nye,

Please excuse my ignorance if this was posted elsewhere.

I've seen photos of your IBR bike, so I'm aware of some of the IBR-specific stuff that you added, and some the differences between standard authority and civilian models.

But how did you come to select the R1200RT-P as the platform for your IBR motorcycle?

rob nye · Nov 5, 2007

gulfcoastbeemer said:
Rob Nye,

Please excuse my ignorance if this was posted elsewhere.

I've seen photos of your IBR bike, so I'm aware of some of the IBR-specific stuff that you added, and some the differences between standard authority and civilian models.

But how did you come to select the R1200RT-P as the platform for your IBR motorcycle?

The RTP is the best motorcycle to modify for the IBR.

The stock electrical system is more than up to the task with the second battery and all the brackets and such for the lights are also stock.

Best,

Rob Nye

RocketCowboy · Nov 5, 2007

Rob ... did you have any problem purchasing your RTP?

When I inquired, I was told I couldn't buy one new, I had to get it used from an agency ... that the authority bikes weren't for sale new directly to non-municipal riders. As it is, I've been buying various authority parts to bolt up to my standard RT, but I'm starting to think it would have been cheaper to just start with an RTP if possible.

gulfcoastbeemer · Nov 6, 2007

Rob Nye, I'm going to post this in hopes you might respond, given your technical wizardry.

Your IBR bike was outfitted with quite an impressive array of gadgets. I'm curious if you gave any consideration to creating a temperature readout for the transmission and/or final drive -- particularly the final drive?

Perhaps, a temperature display might have given you a little warning of the final drive problem.

I recall reading somewhere here that one rider experienced ABS failure warnings when the temperature of his final drive had risen enough to destroy the speed sensor found in the final drive hub.

I've gotten in the habit of inspecting final drive of my '07 RT whenever I stop somewhere -- including touching the hub in an effort to devine it's internal condition. It usually feels warm, but not hot. Creating some sort of surface-mounted temperature sensor might not be out of the question.

JREDFORD131730 · Nov 6, 2007

The service manager at Wild West in Houston says BMW scrapped its (what a crock) no maintenence req FD service. They are now recommending every 12k mi.

MurphyPeoples · Nov 11, 2007

Could it be a Thread Lock Paste?

Okay - I plowed through about 8 pages of this post and never saw mention of what Paul Glaves October 2007 "benchwrenching" column touched on briefly - "Tread Lock Compound"in FD assembly. Now I don't have the article in front of me, but immedately my mind jumped to a Loctite type product "accidentally" being introduced into the bearing/gear assembly. If this did happen, the fine particulates in a Thread Lock could invariably scuff off a bearing, races, or gears outer metal overlay of Anitmony. Has anyone else postulated on this? Paul kinda touched on it, but here on the forum it's been all about seal failure. Once I see antimony apprear in a fluid, it usually migrates under the seal sealing surface and causes a small weeping.

I know in the Fluid Analysis practice, that once we see a spike in Antimony, we know that in the near future we expect a bearing or gear failure. This is typical of the type of testing I do in large Gearboxes at one of my accounts - where the gears are operating at 110% of their designed efficiency. You can't see a loss of Antimony on the components as it's usually a microscopic scoring of the metal. We continue to sample and trend the fluid until we unveil metallic matter from the second layer of the component - Stainless or Steel for Gears, Nickle for bearings or shafts - and so forth. Then we do a strip down of the gearbox and go on the hunt for the culprit - trying to salvage a ruining of other parts (sometimes to no avail as the damage has been done).

Anyone willing to send me a sample of Fluid from a Final Drive that has failed, I'd be glad to test for Antimony and Metal Particulates. Of course we'd need a baseline sample of virgin fluid that was the same type used in the OEM original fill.

And hey... I'm not trying to be some kind of genius here. I'm an average guy just taking an interest in the issue since I'm looking at buying a K1200GT in the near future.

Murphy

pglaves · Nov 11, 2007

MurphyPeoples said:
Okay - I plowed through about 8 pages of this post and never saw mention of what Paul Glaves October 2007 "benchwrenching" column touched on briefly - "Tread Lock Compound"in FD assembly. Now I don't have the article in front of me, but immedately my mind jumped to a Loctite type product "accidentally" being introduced into the bearing/gear assembly. If this did happen, the fine particulates in a Thread Lock could invariably scuff off a bearing, races, or gears outer metal overlay of Anitmony. Has anyone else postulated on this? Paul kinda touched on it, but here on the forum it's been all about seal failure. Once I see antimony apprear in a fluid, it usually migrates under the seal sealing surface and causes a small weeping.

I know in the Fluid Analysis practice, that once we see a spike in Antimony, we know that in the near future we expect a bearing or gear failure. This is typical of the type of testing I do in large Gearboxes at one of my accounts - where the gears are operating at 110% of their designed efficiency. You can't see a loss of Antimony on the components as it's usually a microscopic scoring of the metal. We continue to sample and trend the fluid until we unveil metallic matter from the second layer of the component - Stainless or Steel for Gears, Nickle for bearings or shafts - and so forth. Then we do a strip down of the gearbox and go on the hunt for the culprit - trying to salvage a ruining of other parts (sometimes to no avail as the damage has been done).

Anyone willing to send me a sample of Fluid from a Final Drive that has failed, I'd be glad to test for Antimony and Metal Particulates. Of course we'd need a baseline sample of virgin fluid that was the same type used in the OEM original fill.

And hey... I'm not trying to be some kind of genius here. I'm an average guy just taking an interest in the issue since I'm looking at buying a K1200GT in the near future.

Murphy

The threadlock compound I referenced in my article was red Loctite applied to the threads on the paralever stub axle pivot pins. When improperly applied it reached the small roller bearings that the final drive pivots on where attached to the rear of the swingarm. This location is forward of the pinion seal - outside the final drive case. It is extremely unlikely that if slathered on in horrendous amounts that it could migrate past the pinion seal into the case. This is not the cause of ball bearing failures in these drives.

MurphyPeoples · Nov 13, 2007

PGlaves said:
The threadlock compound I referenced in my article was red Loctite applied to the threads on the paralever stub axle pivot pins. When improperly applied it reached the small roller bearings that the final drive pivots on where attached to the rear of the swingarm. This location is forward of the pinion seal - outside the final drive case. It is extremely unlikely that if slathered on in horrendous amounts that it could migrate past the pinion seal into the case. This is not the cause of ball bearing failures in these drives.

Thanks Paul for clearing that up for me. Not being familiar with Final Drive Structure, I couldn't visualize where the threadlock was being applied. Thus the reason I asked the question. Always great to get an answer directly from the "horses mouth".... err... so to speak. :bow

Your opening paragraph in part one of your article really turned peoples heads in my neck of the woods. I've befriended an old BMW Guru Clanton Austell in Columbia SC, that theorizes the issue has roots in preloading a conical bushing. Again, his expertise (like yours) is WAY over my head. But I find the issue interesting and will continue to pay attention.

Sad to see the K1200GT place 4th out of 4 Sport Touring Bikes in a Shootout in this December's "Rider" magazine. I've not ridden one, but plan on checking out what they call "rough shifting" and "too harsh braking". I think after riding a 1980 R100S with rear drum brake for the past year, it will seem light years advanced.

Thanks again for responding to my question.
Sincerely,
Murphy

soffiler · Nov 13, 2007

MurphyPeoples said:
...Sad to see the K1200GT place 4th out of 4 Sport Touring Bikes in a Shootout in this December's "Rider" magazine. I've not ridden one, but plan on checking out what they call "rough shifting" and "too harsh braking". I think after riding a 1980 R100S with rear drum brake for the past year, it will seem light years advanced...

Murphy: it's a BMW - those are features. Seriously - I didn't read the article but I would hazard a guess that all four bikes are SOOOO good that they have to nitpick in order to create a ranking.

Sorry for the off-topic reply... now back to our regularly scheduled Final Drive Failure programming...

pglaves · Nov 13, 2007

MurphyPeoples said:
Sad to see the K1200GT place 4th out of 4 Sport Touring Bikes in a Shootout in this December's "Rider" magazine. I've not ridden one, but plan on checking out what they call "rough shifting" and "too harsh braking". I think after riding a 1980 R100S with rear drum brake for the past year, it will seem light years advanced.

Thanks again for responding to my question.
Sincerely,
Murphy

Well, a magazine in Britain tested the same four models and the final rankings were reversed. BMW 1st.

It is interesting to read to learn features but the rankings are so subjective and by riders so unlike me that the final ratings are the meaningless part of the articles as far as I'm concerned.

milo · Nov 15, 2007

Not wanting to highjack this thread but I had to chuckle at Rider's 2007 shootout ratings. The Gt was the most powerful, lightest yet had the highest load capacity, got the best mpg, had ESA, cruise, computer, heat wasn't an issue. Yet it came in last due to the shifting of the trannsmission and noisey servo brakes (they must have had a 2006 and didn't even know it). The vague feeling of the front end is merely a different feeling than the other three. I could see how when switching from one to another they would all feel similar except the BMW with it's Duolever.

1analguy · Nov 20, 2007

PGlaves said:
Well, a magazine in Britain tested the same four models and the final rankings were reversed. BMW 1st...

Bike Magazine, Oct., '06. Rankings:

1) RT
2) Honda ST
3) Yamaha FJ
4) GT

IIRC, GT complaints centered on the engine/drivetrain. They couldn't understand why the GT, a sport-touring bike, would have been built with a crotch rocket engine (tractability issue), and also complained about excessive driveline lash and a noisy transmission. What struck me as really odd was that not one of their testers ever complained about the seat on the RT... :scratch

YELLOW_S · Nov 20, 2007

1analguy said:
Bike Magazine, Oct., '06. Rankings:

What struck me as really odd was that not one of their testers ever complained about the seat on the RT...

Everyone has there own comfort level. Like my dad has a R1150RT and could not stand the stock seat, but his best friend in Ames, IA has the same bike, same year just different colour and loves the stock seat.

henzilla · Nov 24, 2007

drainplug!

Just picked up a late build '07 GSA...it HAS a drainplug!!! Still have to fill thru the speed sensor hole. I will still drop drive unit to lube driveshaft splines in the future, but nice to see a drainplug on the bottom of casting anyways. Left my manuals on the salesmans desk, so have not looked at maintenance info to compare to the '05's as to rear drive reccomendations.

soffiler · Nov 24, 2007

henzilla said:
Just picked up a late build '07 GSA...it HAS a drainplug!!! Still have to fill thru the speed sensor hole. I will still drop drive unit to lube driveshaft splines in the future, but nice to see a drainplug on the bottom of casting anyways. Left my manuals on the salesmans desk, so have not looked at maintenance info to compare to the '05's as to rear drive reccomendations.

Hi Steve:

Congrat's on the new ride, and thanks for posting about the drainplug. You mean it has a drainplug located on the bottom, correct? (In fact they've always had a drainplug but it used to be on the side.) Please let us know what your manual says about maintenance when you get a chance.

gec343 · Nov 24, 2007

Quality

I love BMW's, but just purchased a Honda ST1300, which will be my ride until BMW gets a handle on quality control, etc. I am amazed at the quality and reliability of the ST1300. Plus, I find it as fun to ride as my 04RT. I'll still be attending BMWMOA rallies, but will be riding the ST there.

henzilla · Nov 25, 2007

soffiler said:
Hi Steve:

Congrat's on the new ride, and thanks for posting about the drainplug. You mean it has a drainplug located on the bottom, correct? (In fact they've always had a drainplug but it used to be on the side.) Please let us know what your manual says about maintenance when you get a chance.

Thanks...still swapping stuff over..still rainy and 40 outside
Yes. a drainplug at the 6 o'clock position, seems to be same plug as "old" position 9 o'clock ,which is gone on this new casting. I'll get my book Tuesday to see schedule/viscosity info.

FD Failure _Dealer Explaination

New member

gulfcoastbeemer

Guest

Ritalin Poster Boy

Let's Ride!

gulfcoastbeemer

Guest

JREDFORD131730

Guest

New member

#13338

New member

New member

#13338

Member

1analguy

Guest

Future BMW WSB Racer

not so retired

New member

New member

not so retired

Attachments

Similar threads