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Thread: after 10 yrs....disappointment

  1. #16
    TNSTAAFL Troutluck's Avatar
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    This reeks of the same kind of shenanigans lots of companies play with digital rights management. It's anti-customer, as you have discovered. Google "defective by design" and you might agree. I can't think of a single good reason for this kind of lockout (*especially* in a malfunctioning scenario), except to guarantee that the dealer has "rights" to service your bike that you'll never have, unless you manage to "break" the DRM, and possible the EULA for the bike/warranty. Lighter harness? Sheesh. I'm not drinking that koolaid.

    Why, yes, this information is affecting my next bike purchase.
    Jack Pate | '09G650GS | '95 R100RT | Previously: '00R1100R, '87K75T
    NW Arkansawyer |
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  2. #17
    Kool Aid Dispenser! jimvonbaden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riderR1150GSAdv View Post
    Please tell me too!! How I can fix it in the middle of nowhere without a BMW computer????
    Same way you fix your 1150 BMW with no computer!

    If you insist on being a ludite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the canbus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal maner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.

    With the exception of the immobilizer system nothing on the bike will leave you any more stranded than on any oilhead.

    Jim

    In 5 years those who now get the current 1200 series will be lamenting the newest innovations, just like the airhead crowd did/does the oilheads.
    www.JVBProductions.com Now, all videos available via download or DVD, or USB for the Wethead.

  3. #18
    Focused kbasa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troutluck View Post
    This reeks of the same kind of shenanigans lots of companies play with digital rights management. It's anti-customer, as you have discovered. Google "defective by design" and you might agree. I can't think of a single good reason for this kind of lockout (*especially* in a malfunctioning scenario), except to guarantee that the dealer has "rights" to service your bike that you'll never have, unless you manage to "break" the DRM, and possible the EULA for the bike/warranty. Lighter harness? Sheesh. I'm not drinking that koolaid.

    Why, yes, this information is affecting my next bike purchase.
    I think you can see above that diagnostic tools are readily available. They're not particularly expensive, either. I think it listed for $199?

    I don't think we're any more locked out of a CanBus bike than we're locked out diagnosing any bike. You just need to have the right tools to do so. That's true for any bike, I think, old, new or somewhere in between.

    I've been doing my own maintenance on my R12s for a few years. They're not much different than my oilhead or, for that matter, maintaining my R100.

    But hey, we all have different tolerances for technology and we'll all buy what we're comfortable with, right?

    If the dealer's "locked out", that's the first step in the diagnosis, isn't it?
    Dave Swider
    Marin County, CA

    Some bikes. Some with motors, some without.

  4. #19
    gulfcoastbeemer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troutluck View Post
    Lighter harness? Sheesh. I'm not drinking that koolaid.I'm not drinking that koolaid.

    Why, yes, this information is affecting my next bike purchase.
    You can drink it. The bike is lighter and more reliable because of CanBus technology.

    Wouldn't it be nice if we could bring back the "good old days" when you could repair your R-bike by the side of the road with a rock. Of course, it would be even better if you weren't stuck by the side of the road and didn't need a rock.

    I have two CanBus BMWs -- an '05 R1200RT and an '07 R1200RT. I have had zero problems. There were many reasons I selected a modern BMW: strong light-weight construction, general reliability, excellent handling, ABS brakes, ESA suspension, electronic adjustable windshield, economical operation, high-performance motor, aerodynamic fairing, and modern electronics -- yes, even CanBus.

    There are no "perfect" motorcycles. I'm sure the dealer will sort out Troutluck's ignition key issue. I don't think it would make any sense to throw out the baby with the bath water.

  5. #20
    TNSTAAFL Troutluck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gulfcoastbeemer View Post
    You can drink it. The bike is lighter and more reliable because of CanBus technology. . .

    There are no "perfect" motorcycles. I'm sure the dealer will sort out Troutluck's ignition key issue. I don't think it would make any sense to throw out the baby with the bath water.
    Not my bike, but you're missing my point, I think. I don't doubt that harness is lighter; I doubt that BMW went this route to save weight. As an owner of a late-model oilhead, I know that if the brain dies, my bike is a giant paperweight. I'm no "luddite," and I fully appreciate the joys of electronic ignition.

    My beef is this: It's not OK for manufacturers to create systems that are undiagnosable/inscrutable by their owners. We're rapidly moving, I fear, to a manufacturing culture in which a dealer can't tell you what was wrong with your bike, because that information is proprietary to the brand. You just get a bill and a "repair code" that vaguely states that something was repaired or replaced. No service contract? Sorry. You'll have to violate the DMCA to fix it yourself, using diagnostic tools you download from some Russian mob website.

    The fact that it's possible for the bikes to be "locked out" makes this a scary possibility. Never mind me, though. As Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here.
    Jack Pate | '09G650GS | '95 R100RT | Previously: '00R1100R, '87K75T
    NW Arkansawyer |
    BMWMOA #125430 | Fraternal Order of the Mudshark (FOM #0001)

  6. #21
    Registered User easy's Avatar
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    Technological Paranoia

    Welcome to the 21st Century.

    What we have here is a little failure to communicate and some good old fashion technological paranoia. For starters, we have a mechanic who fell asleep during one of the technical update training classes. I would suggest taking your bike to a dealership that has a mechanic that lives in the 21st century. It can't be fixed without technical know how and the proper instruments.

    It can‘«÷t be fixed it on the road, but the same thing could happen to most cars.

    In short, people fear what they don't understand.

    Easy
    Last edited by Easy; 03-07-2007 at 01:51 PM.

  7. #22
    Ritalin Poster Boy rob nye's Avatar
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    Hey now,

    A few comments.

    First, every new BMW I have purchased came with three keys, two regular keys and one wallet sized spare. Where are your spare keys? That would tell you right off the bat if it was the key or the sensor.

    When the oilheads were introduced airhead riders panned (and some still do) them as over complicated, etc. My airhead friends would go on and on about how much better it is to have a bike one could take apart and put back together with a leatherman.

    One time I even got this sermon from a guy while we were parked at a rest area to fix a broken airhead.

    I don't think he quite understood the irony of the moment.

    Two Iron Butt Rallies, over 100k bopping around all on multiple "fool" injected bikes and only once was I stuck by the side of the road and that was after a deep woods fall down on my GS where I knocked the TPS all out of whack. I was able to make field adjustments and get me and my bike out of the woods and two days later in the driving rain I got stranded while on my way to the dealer.

    Having said this there really is no excuse for a bike going all wonky and I really hope your dealer does you right.

  8. #23
    Alps Adventurer GlobalRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBasa View Post
    No fuses, for starters. You're never going to melt a portion of your wiring harness before the fuse pops. The Canbus can read that there's too much resistance on the circuit and shut it down. If you've ever dealt with a nicked harness, you know how much of a hassle it can cause.
    Bear with me. I don't own a Hexhead.

    So what you are saying is that Hexheads don't have a single fuse or fuse box on the motorcycle?

    If the Canbus can shut down a circuit, then there is a bit of electronics involved...certainly more than a simple fuse set-up.

    Nicked harnesses. Ahhh, now you know the reason for a once or twice a year thorough motorcycle wash where I remove the gas tank, seat, side covers, etc. It gives me the chance to really clean and inspect everything, especially the stuff that is normally out of sight.


    Quote Originally Posted by KBasa View Post
    Functionally, you can transmit multiple signals through one wire, which makes the harness lighter and easier to repair if there is a problem.
    Signals to what? Certainly not to something as simple as a left and right turn signal. If that is the case with one wire feeding them, then you need an addressable module next to each turn signal. If that is the case, talk about unnecessary complexity...to turn on a simple light.

    How much lighter does it make the harness? Are we decreasing the size (number of wires) by over 50%? I can see that being an issue in a B777 or an F16, but on a motorcycle?

    Easier to repair? I take it you mean diagnose? Nothing could be simpler than power at one end of a wire and a load at the other. Maybe techs have lost their diagnostic skills...actually, very few had that skill to start with so I have seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by KBasa View Post
    If the CanBus system sticks around, look for diagnosis tools to start to appear as software tools for your laptop.
    Don't worry, Dave. The marketing people are good at changing things when sales of the last boom tappers off. They're good at producing a need that nobody has asked for and what is a gimmick in most cases. Look at where DVDs are going. Now Blu Ray. Do they really think I'm going to buy all those movies again? I don't have a single DVD that I already had on VHS.

    Having never blown a fuse since I bought my first BMW in 1991, how does this technology help me? But you know the saying, "BS baffles brains" and the MFGs are certainly good at impressing the masses.
    Last edited by GlobalRider; 03-07-2007 at 01:41 PM.

  9. #24
    RIDERR1150GSADV
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimVonBaden1 View Post
    Same way you fix your 1150 BMW with no computer!

    If you insist on being a Luddite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the can bus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal manner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.

    With the exception of the immobilizer system nothing on the bike will leave you any more stranded than on any oilhead.

    Jim

    In 5 years those who now get the current 1200 series will be lamenting the newest innovations, just like the airhead crowd did/does the oilheads.

    I am not lowering myself to your level by namecalling but you go right ahead and get the latest tech that BMW deems necessary to push on its clients. I know the technology and it works well in cars but we are talking motorcycles, not 5 & 7 series BMW's. (who still have issues)
    Maybe it's me, but for now I'll let folks like you beta test the whole thing until it's foolproof. As far as rumor go, there aren't any as facts speak for themselves.

  10. #25
    kitze2
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    Try fixing your TV, cell phone or even your toaster oven! I work on commercial boats and the new engines from Cat. have four computers on the motor and two more in the pilot house. Each motor! Are they harder to work on? Not at all. They're still an internal combustion motor. Are the electronics a mystery to most? You bet. But they burn less fuel, make more power and since they run whithin the ideal design conditions are much, much more reliable. And a tech with the right equipment and training can fix them 100 times faster than the old systems.
    If you want ABS and traction control and electronic suspension and trip computers and clocks that actually tell time you just have to take the risk (actually a very, very tiny one at worst) with the new electronics. Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!

  11. #26
    Cannonball Rider #52 darrylri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitze2 View Post
    Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!
    I beg your pardon! I not only remeber those things, I have four bikes in the garage that have them. Magnetos are very reliable devices, and don't depend on the rest of the charging system.

    And what's the problem with a 6V generator? If you replace the brushes every 5k miles or so, it works great. And who could ask for more than a 35watt incandescent headlight?

    Points are a bit fiddly, but unless they slip, they just run and run. My R60/2 only calls for checking the points every 3k miles, and except when the rubbing block came off, I've never had to check them sooner.

    I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at.

    --Darryl Richman, forum liaison
    http://darryl.crafty-fox.com

  12. #27
    ggfossen
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    I always reset the trip odometer with each gas fill on my '83 R80RT, too...or I use to. It's busted, now, and it a isn't "side of the road" fix.

    My little FL60 Freightliner RV puller has to be hooked to a computer diagnostic interface with...someplace back east....so the mechanics can do much of anything, and it does have a couple minor "issues." It does, though, get nearly as good of mileage as many of the much smaller older pickups, and it shifts all by itself, and much better than I probably could do with a clutch.

    I just rebuilt a little 2 cycliner '56 JD crawler; simplicity to the max. But when I start pushing dirt, I jealously ponder the new machines. They push dirt a lot more easily.

    My first auto was a $60 Model A Ford. A really fun little car that needed constant tinkering. Anyone remember how long the old muscle car engines would last without a rebuild? Somewhere around 80,000 miles, they started doing really bad things. Today, twice or three times that is not unusual.

    Five thousand mile tires, and one year 6 volt batteries, anyone? Not me.

    Nope, they really don't make them like they use to.

    Gary

  13. #28
    TNSTAAFL Troutluck's Avatar
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    It seems that whole crux of the biscuit comes down to this:

    You either

    a) Want a system with average reliability and relatively low incidence of catastrophic failure that's easily diagnosable and repairable with easy-to-find parts;

    or,

    b) You want a system with high reliability, but that cannot be easily diagnosed or fixed without special tools or instruments (we could debate the incidence of catastrophic failure here. Seems to me that anything that causes the bike to Not Move(tm) is a catastrophic failure, i.e., wonky key transmitter with secret codes, mysterious ABS failure codes, etc.).

    These are deeply personal choices. Part of owning a bike for me is the feeling that I have some control over technology. If the bike decides to Not Move, I want to feel somewhat competent in determining the cause. This doesn't apply to every aspect of my life. If the Ford doesn't start, it's probably getting towed, because I'm not going to break out the tools and troubleshoot while my family waits in the heat or cold.

    However, I enjoy tinkering with the bike. If I screw something up, it might take me a few days to figure out at my leisure, but I'm not without other wheels.

    I'm not saying that the current crop of BMW bike technology prevents you from doing any troubleshooting at all, but it does make it harder for your average person to make any assumptions about what might be wrong. Air, spark, and fuel become tangential.

    This could explain the Ural thing, maybe, but I don't want to go there. Yet.
    Jack Pate | '09G650GS | '95 R100RT | Previously: '00R1100R, '87K75T
    NW Arkansawyer |
    BMWMOA #125430 | Fraternal Order of the Mudshark (FOM #0001)

  14. #29
    Focused kbasa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrylRi View Post
    I beg your pardon! I not only remeber those things, I have four bikes in the garage that have them. Magnetos are very reliable devices, and don't depend on the rest of the charging system.

    And what's the problem with a 6V generator? If you replace the brushes every 5k miles or so, it works great. And who could ask for more than a 35watt incandescent headlight?

    Points are a bit fiddly, but unless they slip, they just run and run. My R60/2 only calls for checking the points every 3k miles, and except when the rubbing block came off, I've never had to check them sooner.

    I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at.

    When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl?
    Dave Swider
    Marin County, CA

    Some bikes. Some with motors, some without.

  15. #30
    Registered User easy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBasa View Post
    When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl?
    Touche!!


    Easy

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