Military and MSF Cards!

MSP Sucks!

I am done with this thread.

sgtboring said:

I attended a MSP course in 1989. The MSP only keeps records for 5 years. Now the DOD will not let riders on bases without a flippen MSP card. In twenty years I have never been asked for a MSPcard. In PA the answer I get is a smug "You have to take the course over". This comming from a person who gets paid $17 Plus an hour to spoon feed mulitple choice answers to newbies and hand out her business cards (she also sells HD bikes). This pisses me off on several levels. While the MSF is a good organization in therory, I do not agree with what and how they are teaching. How does a private organziation get to (in PA Anyway) Issue drivers licences? I know if I went to Penn Dot they would have records dating back to 1996! In my busy life I despise any additional hoops I have to jump through to live my life. Particularly one I already jumped through 20 years ago. Perhaps I should forge a card. Any adv ice? Or do you know where I can find the British forger for The Great Escape?

Click to expand...

I think millions of dollars has corrupted what was once a noble effort.
I think it was Everitt Dirkson who said "a million here...a million there...pretty soon you're talking about real money".

My understandingis that as a member of the military you need to have taken the MSF and have it be current to ride on military property. However as a non military person, you simply have to have a license with proper endorsement and typically a reflective vest to ride on property.

The BMW MOA Foundation hosted the ERC course on a local base during the Vermont Rally we did not need to have people have MSF cards to get on property. However they did have to have the gear on.

I'm not sure how DOD defines "current" but at least the course is free to servicemembers. Doesn't solve your current problem though.

You might have to budget a weekend for it. At least it's free riding. I'd check with JAG about the possibility of losing medical coverage and SGLI benefits if you're injured/killed willfully blowing off a requirement. They're sticklers about things now that were ignored 20 years ago. Let us know how it turns out.

You might ask over on the Veteran's BMW site, CVMA etc. Can't remember the addresses right now.

I know when I was in you had to take the course at every base you were stationed at. I took it four times. In the P.I. you did not need to take it though to ride the base motocross track or race there.

I've been retired from the Army for three years now and when I returned to Ft Sam Houston, as a Defense Contractor I had to get my bike registered on post. When they asked me for my card, all I could give them was the letter the MSF gave me back in 1985. It was undated, but they accepted it. I have heard on some posts/bases that one must have taken the MSF course within the last 3-5 years to be current. This reg is not universally enforced. While I was at Peterson AFB, Colorado Springs, they didn't even ask for the MSF proof of training (unusual for the AF).

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

Refresher Course

If you hae a new bike since the last MSF course and you can take the course for FREE - take the course. I take the course every year and always learn something new or relearn something forgotten.

Refresher training can save you time, expense and perhaps avoid an injury.

Good Luck

I work on a Navy Base as a Contractor, and have been involved with Safety about riding on the base.

First off, it is simple. You play by the DoD rules. It's their base. You don't want to play by thier rules, you can drive to work in a cage.

All riders, Active Duty, Civilian Employee and Contractors must comply.

The Navy rules state (see OPNAVINST 5100.12G) that you have to have an endorsement from your home state and passed CNO approved training, carrying the card with you. The MSF course and Rider's Edge qualify.

All riders must wear helmets, eye protection (includes a face sheild with the visor down of you don't have glasses on), long fingered gloves, over-the-ankle boots, long pants, long sleeved & brightly colored upper garmet. You bike must be licensed to ride on the road and in good working order. Your headlights must be on at all times.

All state laws apply, but the DoD rules take precedence. By that I mean for example, we don't have a helmet law in Indiana, but we have to wear on on base.

The local commander can institute more stringent rules, but not circumvent the CNO's instruction.

Government employees can get reimbursed for the training. In the past, they have contracted with ABATE of Indiana to send a licensed instructor to give a one-day class and test to get the card. Check with Safety on your installation to see if they are willing to do that.

I beleive in training anyway. There is absolutley nothing wrong with taking the flippin' course to get the flippn' card. Hell, you might even learn something!

So stand to, Soldier or Sailor or Airman (or civvy or bottom feeder contractor)!!

I have had other riders here on base complain to me about the rules and such, and just say, well then don't ride. I comply so I can ride to work every day.

From: ouA PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS(uc),ou:ALARACT RELEASE AUTHORITY(uc)
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:41 PM
To: AL ALARACT(uc)
Subject: ALARACT 010/2005
Importance: Low

UNCLASSIFIED//

THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN SENT BY THE PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER ON BEHALF OF DA WASHINGTON DC//DACS-SF//

SUBJECT: MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING AND OPERATING REQUIREMENTS

DIRECTOR OF ARMY SAFETY SENDS

A. DODI 6055.4, DOD TRAFFIC SAFETY PROGRAM

B. AR 385-55, PREVENTION OF MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS

C. ARMY SAFETY CAMPAIGN PLAN, APR 04

D. MSG, OCT 02, MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING AND OPERATING REQUIREMENTS

1. ARMY LEADERS MUST TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION IN RESPONSE TO AN ESCALATING LOSS OF SOLDIERS' LIVES TO MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS. NINE SOLDIERS HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES IN MOTORCYCLE ACCIDENTS DURING THE FIRST 2 MONTHS OF FY 05; 22 LIVES WERE LOST IN FY 04.

2. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT COMMANDERS THOROUGHLY UNDERSTAND AND CONTINUE TO STRINGENTLY ENFORCE THE LONG-STANDING MOTORCYCLE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS CONTAINED IN REFERENCES A AND B ABOVE. SOLDIERS' LIVES CAN BE SAVED WITH USE OF THE ARMY MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEM-1 (ASMIS-1) PRIVATELY OWNED VEHICLE (POV) MODULE, AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIOR.

3. TRAINING:

A. THE TRAINING STANDARD IS THE MOTORCYCLE SAFETY FOUNDATION (MSF) OR MSF- BASED, STATE-APPROVED CURRICULUM TAUGHT BY CERTIFIED OR LICENSED INSTRUCTORS. HANDS-ON TRAINING AND A PERFORMANCE-BASED AND KNOWLEDGE-BASED EVALUATION ARE REQUIRED.

B. SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PRESCRIBED MOTORCYCLE SAFETY TRAINING IS MANDATORY FOR ALL SOLDIERS OPERATING MOTORCYCLES ON OR OFF POST, ON OR OFF DUTY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE MOTORCYCLE IS REGISTERED ON POST. SOLDIERS MUST BE IN POSSESSION OF AN MSF CARD WHEN THEY RIDE TO VERIFY COMPLETION OF TRAINING.

4. PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT AND CLOTHING (PPEC). RECOMMEND COMMANDERS REVIEW CURRENT REGULATIONS AS REFERENCED IN A AND B ABOVE, AND ENSURE ENFORCEMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:

A. SOLDIERS CONTINUE TO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED TO WEAR A HELMET OR OTHER PPEC IF THE STATE IN WHICH THEY OPERATE THEIR BIKE DOES NOT REQUIRE IT. FURTHERMORE, SOLDIERS ARE OFTEN OBSERVED WEARING THE REQUIRED PPEC WHILE RIDING ON POST, AND THEN REMOVING IT AFTER THEY DRIVE OFF POST. REGULATORY REQUIREMENTS APPLY TO ALL ACTIVE DUTY SOLDIERS OPERATING MOTORCYCLES ON OR OFF POST, ON OR OFF DUTY, REGARDLESS OF PERMANENT OR TRANSITORY STATUS, AND REGARDLESS OF LOCAL OR STATE LAWS. THEY ALSO APPLY TO ALL ARMY NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVE COMPONENT SOLDIERS WHEN IN A DUTY STATUS (INDIVIDUAL DEVELOPMENTAL TRAINING, ADVANCED INDIVIDUAL TRAINING, ANNUAL TRAINING, AND TITLE 10 AND TITLE 32 STATUS). COMMANDERS MUST ENSURE THIS IS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD.

B. REQUIRED PPEC ARE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (DOT) CERTIFIED HELMET, IMPACT OR SHATTER RESISTANT GOGGLES OR FULL FACE SHIELD PROPERLY ATTACHED TO THE HELMET, STURDY OVER-THE-ANKLE FOOTWEAR, LONG SLEEVED SHIRT OR JACKET, LONG TROUSERS, FULL-FINGERED GLOVES OR MITTENS DESIGNED FOR USE ON MOTORCYCLE, BRIGHTLY COLORED OUTER UPPER GARMENT DURING THE DAY AND A RETRO-REFLECTIVE UPPER GARMENT DURING THE NIGHT. OUTER UPPER GARMENT SHALL BE CLEARLY VISIBLE AND NOT COVERED BY BACKPACKS OR OTHER OBSTRUCTIONS. SOLDIERS WHO WEAR A REFLECTIVE BELT SHOULD WEAR IT DIAGONALLY ACROSS THE TORSO TO ENSURE MAXIMUM VISIBILITY. COMMANDERS SHOULD ENSURE PPEC REQUIREMENTS ARE ENFORCED AT INSTALLATION GATE CHECKPOINTS.

C. OPERATORS MUST ENSURE THAT THEIR PASSENGERS ALSO COMPLY WITH PPEC AND VISIBLE GARMENT REQUIREMENTS. REAR VIEW MIRRORS MUST BE MOUNTED ON HANDLE BAR OR FAIRING, AND HEADLIGHT MUST BE TURNED ON.

D. FAILURE TO WEAR THE PRESCRIBED PPEC OR COMPLY WITH LICENSING OR THE OPERATOR TRAINING REQUIREMENT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED IN MAKING LINE OF DUTY DETERMINATIONS.

5. ASMIS-1 POV MODULE. REFERENCE C REQUIRES THAT COMMANDERS ENSURE SOLDIERS WHO OPERATE A POV, INCLUDING A MOTORCYCLE, IN CONJUNCTION WITH LEAVE OR PASS COMPLETE THE ASMIS-1 POV MODULE. THIS AUTOMATED TOOL HELPS THE SOLDIER PLAN TRIPS PRIOR TO DEPARTURE. IT IDENTIFIES POTENTIAL HAZARDS, PROPOSES CONTROLS OR ALTERNATE COURSES OF ACTION TO MITIGATE THE HAZARDS, AND ESTABLISHES A LEVEL OF RISK FOR THE PLANNED EVENT. RESULTS OF THE ASSESSMENT ARE FORWARDED TO THE SUPERVISOR FOR REVIEW TO FACILITATE DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE SOLDIER AND FIRST-LINE SUPERVISOR.

6. UNDESIRABLE OPERATOR BEHAVIOR. COMMANDERS HAVE A NUMBER OF VIABLE OPTIONS AT THEIR DISPOSAL TO CORRECT UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIORS WHEN ENCOUNTERING POOR OR HIGH RISK DRIVERS WITHIN THEIR UNIT. THESE CORRECTIVE MEASURES INCLUDE ADVERSE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIONS SUCH AS CHAPTER DISCHARGE ACTIONS AND LINE OF DUTY-NO DETERMINATIONS, ARTICLE 15'S, AND COURTS-MARTIAL. COMMANDERS NEED NOT WAIT FOR ONE OF THESE SOLDIERS TO KILL THEMSELVES OR SOMEONE ELSE BEFORE TAKING ACTION. CONSIDER ESTABLISHING A UNIT POLICY TO MAKE THESE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS, DIRECTIVE IN NATURE. WHEN FACED WITH A CREDIBLE REPORT OF INAPPROPRIATE DRIVING, COMMANDERS MUST ACT IMMEDIATELY TO HOLD SOLDIERS ACCOUNTABLE FOR STANDARDS. IGNORING UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIOR CONDONES IT AND ESTABLISHES NEW, LOWER STANDARDS FOR THE UNIT.

7. THIS MESSAGE REINFORCES MANDATORY REQUIREMENTS IN REFERENCES A AND B THAT WERE RECONFIRMED BY REFERENCE D.

8. EXPIRATION DATE CANNOT BE DETERMINED.


This just one of the notices that Pentagon has sent out. To ride on Military property all motorcycle operators must have passed MSF because it uniformed across the the board. Each base may enforce the policy differently then bases others. I passed a motorcycle course back in the 1980's and the base law enforcement officers did not regonize it and I took that couse on that base. I would retake the MSF course and just get it over with if you want to ride on base.


Michael Johnston
Founder: Veteran BMW Riders
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/vBMWr/

yeah, what he said! I should have done that...

Now that he told us all that, he has to kill us! That is probably in some other DoD, Army or OPNAV document somewhere. I just can't find that one!

I had to read these doc daily, but just think if are servicemen and do not comply to with that type letter. They could lose everthing, like rank, pay and if death does happen the Government could decide not pay his SGLI to his loved ones if he was not wear helmet or the other items listed that he needed to wear for his protection on a motorcycle if the government felt that it could have saved the servicemen life.


Michael Johnston

OK it is true that Active Duty Military are required to wear their helmets even when off-duty and off a military installation. Soooooo, that means Maverick in Top Gun was breaking regs when he was boogying around on his sportbike!

And, NO!!! That means Steve McQueen was also breakign regs when he stole the German Army Issue Norton(?) trying to evade the German soldiers on sidecar rigs (BMW's? ) escaping to Switzerland in Great Escape! Say it ain't so!

Sarg.
One of my riding buddies is an instructor here in PA, let me see what he can do.

john1691
2000 K1200RS

If you need to get on base call the MSF. They cannot replace your card but they will send you a letter saying you took the class. THe millitary post will accept this. I had simmular problems. This worked for me on two millitary posts.

godzilla said:

OK it is true that Active Duty Military are required to wear their helmets even when off-duty and off a military installation. Soooooo, that means Maverick in Top Gun was breaking regs when he was boogying around on his sportbike!

And, NO!!! That means Steve McQueen was also breakign regs when he stole the German Army Issue Norton(?) trying to evade the German soldiers on sidecar rigs (BMW's? ) escaping to Switzerland in Great Escape! Say it ain't so!

Click to expand...

That life on the big screen, and when is everything in the movies real. All I have to say is that everyone that wants to ride on a militay base according to what is put out they need to have passed an MSF course and follow the base guidelines to ride on base . That goes for military or non-military I did not make up the rules. Now for each base enforcing the rules that depends on the Base law enforcement officers and the command.


Michael Johnston

OK Let me be clear.

I am done with this thread

Actually, they've changed the experienced rider course. It's just a Saturday, and no class time.

But I understand your predicament; a couple years ago I couldn't find a solitary ERC class being offered in the entire SF Bay area, and eventually had to make a deal with one of the schools to provide enough students to run a course. (I brought them enough to run 3 courses!)

Now I'm starting to think about finding another class to take...

Call the local dealers

The Experienced Rider Course (ERC) takes half a day. It is worth the investment of time. Find one of those and you can save a lot of time. Try calling a few motorcycle dealers in your area. If a course is being given in the near future a flyer will be on the bulletin board.

Make a few telephone calls. You might get a break.

In the 5 years I have been riding on base, I have never been asked to produce my MSF card or license. They did have us FAX a copy of our cards in for records, but that was optional.

As far as the Gate Guards go, only once was I asked to remove my helmet so they could see my face and was shortly after the 9/11 incident. I wear my ID badge in an arm band holder. As I approach the gate I switch to Lo Beams, flip up my faceshield and point to my left arm. The guard waves me on through every time.

I got stopped one time and was told that my leather vest with the huge US Flag on the back doesn't cut it. He let me on that day and asked me to wear something brighter from then on.

Although I have heard a few stories about riders getting hassled over the years, I have never really had a problem.

I have been through the MSF course twice. The second time was with my wife. She wanted me there for moral support. I thought it was a hoot the second time through actually. I have to agree that the current MSF course has a lot to be desired. They even dumbed it down from when I took the RSS:BRC in 2002 to when I took the new version in 2005. However, I still think that it isn't a bad idea to go back for a refresher course now and then. I do wish the ERC classes were more available though.

Here a list of bases that I have had to show my MSF card to the Gate guards:
Ft. McCoy WI, Ft. Richardson AK, Minneapolis-St Paul International Airport/Air Reserve Station MN, New Orleans Naval Air Station/Joint Reserve LA, FT Bliss Tx they also requried my to put on a road guard vest over a brightly colored Joe rocket winter coat, FT Sill OK, and a couple of smaller National Guard base here in the midwest. You would think that my bikes do not have a base decals, but the do it just those base procedures and how follows the rules the rules. But the rumor is the may offer ERC course at 2007 rally beside the just MSF course.


Michael Johnston