R1200RT Rear Drive Failure

fracture said:

All of this makes me wonder if I should wait a bit longer and take a close look at the F800 when it gets here. I used to have my doubts about belt drive but since my Harley-riding friends are not reporting any problems, and I am not hearing of any problems, I might reconsider a bike with belt drive.

In over 20 years on airheads, the only drive problem I ever had was an oil leak on one bike. Has the new drive system gotten too complex to be reliable?

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Having just sold my second Harley with belt drive I should let you know that all is not roses with belts. For twenty years I went down any damn road I pleased. I discovered the hard way that belt drive bikes should not be taken on gravel roads (exceptions may be bikes with elaborate belt guards).

I picked up a stone in 2005 on a 30 mile gravel ride and had to spend part of the winter disassembling half the bike to replace the belt. Nothing in Beemerdom prepares one for the stupidity of Harley's belt replacement process on the big twins (Sportsters may be easier). The belt itself is a $200 part plus you need about $45 in gaskets and locknuts. I did the work myself after discovering that two shops wanted around $700 to do the job.

OTOH the belt did not fail in service. It simply had a rock protruding through it about 2/3 of the way over to the edge. Rather than ride it until the belt unraveled or failed at that point I was told to replace it. I finally understood why Harley riders told me to stay away from gravel. Not good for the pocketbook!

I had to buy two special size sockets to remove the primary drive sprocket and clutch hub. There are a few steps in the process which are two person jobs (removing the swingarm and replacing same).

Good things about belts? No oil, no maintenance, quiet, well behaved, no driveline lash.

-Gary

grw said:

Good things about belts? No oil, no maintenance, quiet, well behaved, no driveline lash.

-Gary

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. . . and cheaper to replace than an entire rear shaft drive.

cjack said:

Years ago we never heard of the failures like we do now. Internet and all.
I was kind of struck by the thousands of bikes at the National Rally that went thousands of miles...and home again. Don't tell me about the 12 or so that broke. Thanks. Part timing at a dealer or reading the forum makes you think they are all broken and they aren't.

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True enough. I rode my R11RSL for around 40K miles without a serious problem. Not problem free, but nothing serious. I rode a R100GS before that for about 25K miles with no problems (the second owner bought the u-joints), My K100RT had one failure that affected operation over 55K miles. My other beemers were older bikes that required tinkering and TLC so I won't go by those except to say that they never stranded me, either.

OTOH when a bike fails at 3500 miles it is cause for concern. My friends in the LD riding community tell me that there is reasonable anecdotal evidence of a higher than normal failure rate for BMW drivetrains in late model bikes. By contrast there have been almost no failures of that sort in any of the other brands used by top finishers in IBA events.

There will always be random failures in manufactured goods. Question is was my experience the odd one-off or is it the canary in the mine shaft? Time will tell.

BTW I agree with cjack that worrying is not the right take away from this experience. The take-away is that there may be some parts supply problems with new bikes and BMWNA has problems with it's customer service operation. Both of these are potentially useful data points. Nothing more.

-Gary

a few others do

GlobalRider said:

One has to wonder about the Paralever - single sided swingarm design in the first place...period! I wonder why the other manufacturers haven't gone that route, and some of their bikes even produce far more power than a BMW.

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Triumph has a few bikes with a single sided swing arm, the Honda VFR I bought, instead of a K12S, has a single sided swing arm and oh yeah you can't forget the modern classic Ducati 916.

Kbrick said:

Triumph has a few bikes with a single sided swing arm, the Honda VFR I bought, instead of a K12S, has a single sided swing arm and oh yeah you can't forget the modern classic Ducati 916.

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Yes, and all those designs have tons of room for bearings in the tail end of the cast swingarms.

BMW has to squeeze a crown and pinion gear set between a set of bearings.

I wonder how Honda would design BMW's set-up?

a short reply

GlobalRider said:

Yes, and all those designs have tons of room for bearings in the tail end of the cast swingarms.

BMW has to squeeze a crown and pinion gear set between a set of bearings.

I wonder how Honda would design BMW's set-up?

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I guess thats why they didn't!

I've owned a R80ST where the bearing went bad, fixed under warranty. The rear wheel was a tad wobbley but it got fixed and rode another 30k miles till I bought my sainted K.

Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the Roundel, and will purchase that R90/6 one day, but there seems to be a large number of failures for the machines produced. Perhaps no replacement as reported by some dealers is because a big fix is in the pipeline to retrofit these troubled machines.

I recall the first oilheads had some severe tranny problems back in the early '90s. The boys got it right and we ride on...

OK, so hypothetically....

If there is a design flaw, is BMW going to issue a recall on all the "suspect" units?

I had a final drive drive support bearing failure at 36k miles on an '02R1150R.

R 1200 GS Drive Flange Failure

Gary,
I have a 2005 R 1200 GS that had a similar failure as yours. The wheel developed 3/16" lateral movement when the tire was grabbed at 3 & 9 O'clcok or at 12 and 6 o'clock. I did some research on ADV rider and found out that the drive flange that the wheel is bolted to by the lug bolts is splined to the crown gear and the slop happens when these two mating sufaces wear (mine was at 19,000 miles). There is a BMW service bulletin (included) that describes the two different types of failures and how they are to be addressed. Some dealers will attempt to heat up and install a new drive flange but the crown gear splines are also worn so there will still be some play. The service bulletin says to replace the entire final drive. My local dealer (300 miles away) tried to put a new flange on but relented and ordered a new final drive (which had to be shipped from Germany) Sorry for your failure hope this information helps out.

?® 2004, BMW of North America, LLC
BMWMotorrad
USA
Service Information Bulletin
Subject: Bearing play at the rear wheel drive
Model:
Details:
Aftersales
Solution:
Dealer Operation/
General Manager
Sales-
Motorcycles
Sales -
Used Motorcycles
Business Manager
(F&I)
Service Parts & Accessories Administration
Date: February 2005
Bulletin #33 001 05 (011)
Source: 33 74/2004
BMW Motorrad USA Service and Technical
Contact: Respective Aftersales Business Consultant
R 1200 GS
1: In the rear drive of the R 1200 GS the ring gear is supported by two types of bearings:
one floating bearing and one fixed bearing without preload. Inherent in this design
is a small amount of bearing play at the rear wheel. With all components manufactured
and assembled to stated tolerances it is possible that play in these bearings can be felt
and measured at the rear wheel. This type of bearing play has no effect on motorcycle
handling or on the durability of the bearings.
2: There is a possibility of play developing between the splined wheel flange (P/N 33 17
7 668 659) and the axle tube of some motorcycles manufactured prior to 08/2004, US
VIN# ZL 76187.
1: In the event of a customer complaint, an inspection and measurement of rear wheel
bearing play is to be performed as described below. With cold components the total
play (back and forth travel) allowable at the wheel rim edge is 1mm(maximum). Refer to
the R 1200 GS Repair Manual CD for measuring procedures as well as temperature definition
of "cold components". Replace the entire rear-wheel drive assembly if the play
exceeds specifications.
2: If the complaint is "bearing play at the rear wheel" you must first check that the
splined flange is secure before performing the measurement noted in point #1. When
rocking the rear wheel back and forth, you must first make sure there is no movement
between the wheel flange, the rear wheel and the axle tube.
If play is noticeable between these components you must replace the entire rear wheel
drive assembly (complete with flange). Replacing the splined wheel flange only will not
solve the situation, because in all probability the splines on the axle tube will have suffered
some degree of wear as well. If you are in doubt, you are requested to contact your
respective Aftersales Business Consultant.
Warranty: Covered under the terms of the New Motorcycle Limited Warranty.
Important Note: Screw 1 is a drain
plug for repair-related oil changes; it is
not for checking the oil level. When filling
the rear drive assembly with oil,
pour in the defined quantity (0.25 l for
initial fill, or 0.23 l for oil changes)
through the bore for the ABS sensor.
We highly recommend using BMW
Super Synthetic Gear oil. 75W 90, P/N
07 51 0 394 082

Sorry to hear about all your troubles. I am glad that BMW is at least picking up the tab... I had to wait for over 2 weeks for a part from Germany about 3 years ago... got to deal with customs. I have never figured out why they don't disassemble a bike from the floor, but that is ultimately left up to your dealer. I would suggest you find out from your dealer who the district/state/regional BMW tech advisor is. My experience is that the BMW Service Manager has to deal with him, and he deals directly with BMWNA,
because he is a BMWNA employee. He is a good person to get to know.
BTW, on my 99 RT I had rear end failure too, between 36K and 48K until they finally diagnosed and fixed it. The dealer claimed it was an isolated incident, which I found out not to be true. Hope you end up happier than I did, because I ultimately sold the oilhead and went back to an airhead for reliability and I was tired to giving BMW dealers all my money.

R1200 Final Drive Failure - Status Report

"Seperately I filed a request for investigation with the NHTSA."

Gary:

Thanks for the courage and good judgment to report the matter to the NHTSA. More of us need to be doing the same. The rear end problem has been troublesome for too long. If something is not done, someone is going to get seriously hurt or worse. After reading so many threads, I get the feeling that BMW is loosing touch with the average consumer, or their P.R. department is off track. Too many Tonys in this world. That's a shame since so many of us are loyal and committed Motorrads. The NHTSA has the clout to correct the situation.

The NHTSA is not perfect, but when they have the correct amount of data they are responsive. I seriously wonder if the correct information is getting back to them.

I'm saying this in hopes of correcting a situation that is getting serious, not to bash BMW. I won't be writing an. . ."I leaving"... thread. I love my bike and hope to be a loyal Motorrad for years to come. A number of large corporations get off track at times, look at Ford and GMC.

An earlier response suggested Harley may be the answer. Harleys have their own serious problems: cam bearing failure, horns that don't work, exaggerated tensioner shoe wear and a two year warranty to name a few.

In conclusion, I just want to encourage everyone who has Final Drive Failure, or other serious safety concern, to contact the NHTSA in a good faith attempt to resolve the issue.

Easy
Big Empty, Texas
Every man should be content to mind his own business.
Aesop (620 BC-560 BC)

Kbrick said:

I guess thats why they didn't!

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Although the single sided swingarm came about as the Monolever shortly before the Paralever, the Paralever pretty well forces a single sided swingarm set-up.

And why? Because of jacking effect. Like who cares!!!! A GW and FJR 1300 has gobs more power and torque than my airheads and oilheads. I'll live with it...just give me a normal everyday rear drive that works and quit trying to impress me, BMW.

I honestly wish Honda would make a shaft drive GS.

GS rear drive anticipatory jitters

So, I suppose that this is the worst possible time to be reading this thread since I -- yesterday -- signed up for a 2006 R1200GS...oh so shiny and new. On the other hand, my '95 R1100GS has been relatively trouble-free for 73,000 miles. I can only hope it will work out...and hope to remember to keep the service intervals and the guarantee intact.

77691

I would not worry about it. I have an '06 RT and I'm enjoying it more than any bike I've ever had. If I had it to do over again, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The GS is a great bike and I think you'll feel the same. We just need to keep an eye out for any signs of trouble. That's the good thing about a three year warranty.

Easy
Big Empty, Texas
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much."
Oscar Wilde

rear drive jitters

...Like "Ride it like you own it." : )
Thanks for consolatory comment! --j

77691 said:

So, I suppose that this is the worst possible time to be reading this thread since I -- yesterday -- signed up for a 2006 R1200GS.

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You should have read that "other" thread. BMW is going back to putting a drain plug in the rear wheel drive units for 2007. When I saw the R1200 GS at the show when it first came out, I wondered about BMW's reasoning for omitting one.

BTW, this is Kawasaki's version of the Paralever. Although not employing a single sided swingarm, we'll see if the new Concours has the same problems. Come to think about it, why do I even need a single sided swingarm? For easy rear wheel removal? Like how often to I take the rear wheel off?

GlobalRider said:

You should have read that "other" thread. BMW is going back to putting a drain plug in the rear wheel drive units for 2007. When I saw the R1200 GS at the show when it first came out, I wondered about BMW's reasoning for omitting one.

?

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Not quite. Nothing has changed mechanically. BMW has always had a drain plug in the drive at the midway horizontal level. The drive has to be rotated 90 degrees to allow the oil to drain out. This is now recommended on the '07 bikes at the 600 mile checkup. The fill was and is done thru the ABS sensor hole with a measured amount of gear oil, after the drive is rotated back into position. I think .23L for a refill. The "drain" plug is to be replaced with a new one that has a magnet in it.
The recommended fill is BMW 75W90 synth which is made for them by Spectro.

cjack said:

Not quite. Nothing has changed mechanically. BMW has always had a drain plug in the drive at the midway horizontal level. The drive has to be rotated 90 degrees to allow the oil to drain out. This is now recommended on the '07 bikes at the 600 mile checkup. The fill was and is done thru the ABS sensor hole with a measured amount of gear oil, after the drive is rotated back into position. The "drain" plug is to be replaced with a new one that has a magnet in it.

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If you have to rotate the rear drive 90?? to have the drain face downwards, then it really isn't a "drain", is it? Why would anyone design something so that one cannot easily change a lubricant?

Just reading this stuff makes me happy I bought a dual plug GS Adventure...and a second "spare" before they stopped making them. I won't be buying anything new for a looooong time.

GlobalRider said:

If you have to rotate the rear drive 90?? to have the drain face downwards, then it really isn't a "drain", is it? Why would anyone design something so that one cannot easily change a lubricant?

Just reading this stuff makes me happy I bought a dual plug GS Adventure...and a second "spare" before they stopped making them. I won't be buying anything new for a looooong time.

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I've always wondered why we don't change the fluid in our cars nearly as often or at all. I think maybe they don't pick up moisture as much. So maybe BMW was thinking this drive to be somewhat sealed and doesn't require oil changing. BTW, they further state that the oil doesn't need to be changed after the 600 mile change, that changing at the 12K mile doesn't yield any additional benefit.

my 2 cents

There's a couple things I'd like to comment on. The first is that the warranty is 3 years but only 36K miles. May of us put 15-30K per year. Personaly I often exceed that but there're not all BMW miles. That kinda does in the time frame unless I want to cough up the bucks for an extended warranty. The second is that although there are many thousands of bikes with many thousands of miles at the rally I disagree with the notion that since it was someone elses failure it's not a problem. Remember the driveshaft problem on airhead paralever GS's or the surging of older oilheads? It disturbs me when a service manager at a BMW dealership tells me that the internet is comprised of a bunch of malcontents who complain about non factual problems. The internet is an enabler that empowers us as consumers to compare experiences and act on information.
Always hungry when riding,
robert

cjack said:

I've always wondered why we don't change the fluid in our cars nearly as often or at all. I think maybe they don't pick up moisture as much.

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Most don't but I do. My Honda CR-V has 79,500 miles on it and both the manual transmission fluid and dual pump fluid in the differential have been changed at: 10K, 35K and at 69K miles so far. For under $25 in lubes and sealing rings, I can afford it.

BTW, the differential breather has a hose attached to it and runs up to a frame member above. I'd do the same thing to my BMW rear drive if I wear riding across rivers, etc.

cjack said:

So maybe BMW was thinking this drive to be somewhat sealed and doesn't require oil changing. BTW, they further state that the oil doesn't need to be changed after the 600 mile change, that changing at the 12K mile doesn't yield any additional benefit.

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Somewhat sealed...means water can enter. And oil and sealing rings are so cheap, I can't afford to not change the lubes. Some years I might only put a few thousand clicks on my GS after I get back from riding overseas. Even at that, the lubes get changed before winter lay-away. Proper maintenance and care is the cost of ownership.