R1200RT Rear Drive Failure

cjack · Oct 8, 2006

nrpetersen said:
Some thoughts from a retired mech engineer (having been there, done that, a few too many times....) -

It could be bad bearings - but there from what I read, there seem to be individual bad axle assemblies that won't stay fixed.

It could be underdesigned for the task - but then there would be many failures at very roughly (order of magnitude that is) the same mileages, because the likely loading spectrums can't be that different between drivers.

It could be a bad design - it is frankly unusual having a large ID ball bearing opposed by a tapered roller bearing, but I don't see that as necessarily bad providing the clearances & preloads are set up right.

It could be it needs a special lubricant - but then the primary variation would be miles-to-failure. The failures would generally be to the gears (when the anti-wear additives give out), not the bearings. The failure distances seem too varied for that & the benefits of exotic lubricants over more conventional antiwear oils are not that significant.

It could be oil breakdown or excessively viscous oils but the failures don't seem to be related to high (or low?) ambient temperature operations from what I can see of the poster locations.

It could be variations in assembly preloads - then manufacturing tolerances of the special parts would accumulate such that replacing the bearings (which are generally only fair at being identical) would have a marginal chance of success. The assembly includes shims to take care of this, but the shim selection would be critical. I sense that many shops just use the same shims assuming the bearings are identical. That is a mistake. The shim selection should be done using a dial indicator to measure clearance as individual bearings can and will vary in their thrust dimensions. The shim increment used (.002 inch?) does seem pretty coarse.

Bearings with an excessive preload will not roll noticeably harder. Forget about that check. Only if they are substantially overloaded will they even run hot, but it is the only preload indicator we have short of disassembly and measurement. Operating temperature rise might be another indicator though.

Gears are very critical on the locations of the operating centers and rotating axes alignment. This is probably why there is some preload involved. Get it wrong (i, e, loose) and they will get very noisy. But within limits, even noisy gears can last a long time.

It seems the initial failures are bearing related. The gears fail only when the bearing debris grinds the gears up (right?).

There has been some talk of "black stuff" that I can't explain except that fine metal debris can appear black. A magnet should establish what it is.

NRP

The fine black stuff looks and feels just like Moly additive. I have seen it in new BMW transmissions from the parts shelf as well as the drives. The new X1200X drives come with it inside from the factory and the ABS sensor and "drain" plug are installed. They are full of oil so I figure that's why all the holes are plugged. The black stuff is not magnetic and is the devil to get off your fingers if you rub it to see if it feels like moly. I guess it does. At least there is no perceptable grit to it at all. I have seen this same stuff in assembly lube as well when BMW was recommending it for splines in the late '70s.

ultracyclist · Oct 8, 2006

cjack

I sent you a pm.

LORMANDB · Oct 11, 2006

Fyi

I was interested in wanting to learn a bit more about the whole subject of not being able to change oil on the final drive. I called my local dealer told them about what I have read here and wanted to know if I should change oil on my 05 RT. Here is what I was told. Yes, the dealers have received a service bulletin from BMW regarding final drives, and some units based on VIN number should have oil changed at 600 initial service. Reason for this is BMW stopped a "run in" process at the factory. As I understand on some 05 bikes were run at the factory, then oil was changed from motor and drive systems. I asked about my bike, my VIN is not part of the suggested fluid change, but as the service manager put it to me. Can't hurt to change the oil, we are more than happy to do it, and sure we have to charge you for the service. He also added that in his experience, you can't over change your fluids and I could not agree more.

Sure as a long time rider and owner of several bikes, most having final drives and yes looking forward to always changing fluids on a scheduled basis...BMW should have designed my RT with a user service option in mind.

raydar · Oct 14, 2006

R 1200 GS Final Drive Temps

I have been interested in seeing what the new (<600 miles since replacement for Flange failure) final drive temperature is. I have a hand held infrared thermomoter and have checked the temp several times since I got the bike back. I have seen final drive temps from 102 -118 degrees F with ambient temps in the 55 - 70 degrees F. I will continue to check the temps throughout the next season so that I may be ablle to detect a failure if possible before it becomes catastophic, along with checking side play while on center stand (should be less than 1 mm {.040"}).

tomlombardini · Oct 16, 2006

BMW Contact

Hi Gary,

I too have a relatively new R1200RT and was interested in your post. At my 600 mile service, I told the dealer I thought I heard a rubbing/Friction sound coming from the rear end but since I'm new to Shaft drive, thought it might be normal. He gave me the bike back saying there was nothing wrong.

Yesterday, I did smell something briefly but haven't checked the play in the rear wheel since before reading your post, had no reason to. How "free" should that rear wheel spin on the center stand?

I have the tendency to overreact, (sort of like a hypocondriac when he hears symptoms, he all of a sudden has them) so I don't want to panic yet but would like to know I have a number where I can actually talk to someone who cares. Could you forward that contact info you had where you actually got results? (Marek) I've contacted BMW of NA on a number of occasions and no, they don't seem to customer oriented. (Hey, I can always make a personal visit to the Headquarters since they're about 20 miles from my house. <g>)

Thanks in advance.

Tom L.

.

grw said:
First of all I have to complement BMW Motorcycles of Western Oregon (BMWOR) on the professional and courteous fashion in which they continue to handle this situation. After all I'm sure they find the situation frustrating albeit in a different way than I do.

Here's what happened since my original post:

I had a call from the dealer saying that they had recieved one part but were still waiting on the main part or parts for the repair. They promised to keep me informed as the situation changes and told me to call them whenever I want if I feel I'm not hearing enough from them.

A friend pointed me to the RealOEM.com site where I was able to look at the exploded diagrams of the rear end for the R12. This helped me visualize the relationship between the flange that the wheel bolts to and the final drive assembly. If the tech is right and the seal was intact then the failure was probably the splined interface of the flange and axle shaft. The shaft is steel and the flange is alloy. If the flange wore down for some reason it would have resulted in lateral play and ground oxidized aluminium alloy (perhaps the source of the black runoff; not moly as some have speculated). Maybe the only thing that kept me from having he wheel fall off was the retaining ring that holds the flange on the axle. Scary. Again this is not fact; this is speculation based on the little info I have.

I employed a little detective work to call BMWNA since their main number is hard to find. I had to use infospace.com to find a set of BMW numbers in New Jersey which I called until I got a person who pointed me at the main number. I was connected to a guy who identified himself as "Tony" (refused to tell me his last name or phone number) who was quite unconcerned about my experience and would not commit to do anything other than "look into it" and call me back in 48 hours. He refused to let me speak with a supervisor, tell me what BMW NA policy regarding parts availability is, or otherwise engage me in a supportive way. He did not give me a tracking number which leads me to believe they have no systematic way of handling customer issues. How very un-ISO of them. I was frankly shocked that this was BMW NA's support posture for motorcycle purchasers.

I called the Oregon DOJ and spoke to the consumer hotline person who gave me another number which they have used in the past to contact BMW NA (mostly for car things, but occasionally on a motorcycle issue). This got me an actual human being's phone mail. I got a call back during a meeting and got a message from, I think his name is "Marek", at BMW. I returned his call and he was a whole different person than "Tony". Marek was concerned about the problem, he has already investigated the issue, and had spoken with Tony. He promissed to find out what the parts situation was, speak with the dealer, and call me back the next day.

Marek has called me back twice since then with updates. First he thought the part was already on it's way to the dealer from in country distrubution. Today he says he was wrong. The part has shipped from Germany and is in transit. He believes it will arrive at the dealer mid-week (how un-FedEx of them) and he said he would call me on Wednesday with an update.

Seperately I filed a request for investigation with the NHTSA. They have a webform that you can fill out for possible safety issues. I see no reason not to have them look into this. I could have been killed and I'd hate to have that happen to someone else because I did nothing. If there is no underlying problem and this is a freak one-off then no harm done. If not it needs to be addressed in a serious fashion.

There is some chance I'll have the bike back end of next week. I am hoping the probablility is .5. I got the feeling BMW are going to offer to compensate me in some fashion for the downtime and the initially poor way my problem was handled. My sincerest wish is that they'll agree to tell me exactly what failed and how (if not why) for my own peace of mind. We'll see.

-Gary

PS - I hope there were no torx bits in my final drive.... Is that worse than finding a finger in your chilli at Wendy's (OK, that was a hoax, but you get the point)??

PPS - Random thought: Someone should pull the final drive from their hex head and send it off to a vendor in China for replication. That way we can stock our own spares at a low cost and (probably) equivalent quality. That first piece costs a bloody fortune though! I don't know if there is any protected IP in that final drive. Might be interesting to find out!

vegasbeemerguy · Oct 18, 2006

R1200RT rear end failure

All those with the newer bmw type rearends. This includes all the new R and K models with the supposedly sealed lube free rear ends. BMW is now stating that the rear drive lubircant should be changed at the 600mi service. Most are saying you should change the rear drive oil at regular 6k intervals as in the past.
Most BMW dealers have received a bulletin on this subject.
My new ( just over one year old ) K1200S goes in for 6k service next week and I plan to change rear end oil then at every 6k service thereafter. It's not an expensive job and it beats getting stranded in the future. Only time will tell weather those of us who bought these bikes and didn't have the rear end oil changed at 600miles will suffer failure later on.
I was told that apparently there is some kind of coating on the internal components of the rear drive that comes off in the oil as it gets hot under normal operation and as a result this is why the rear drive should be changed at least at the 600mi. service.
Hope you are back on the road soon with your RT.

Have fun and ride safe,

Steve

LORMANDB · Oct 20, 2006

On second thought...am I violating all kinds of copy write laws by posting a picture from my service manual? If so Moderator Please Delete...

BRADFORDBENN · Oct 20, 2006

lormandb said:
On second thought...am I violating all kinds of copy write laws by posting a picture from my service manual? If so Moderator Please Delete...

Sorry but yup, you are... thanks for asking us though
:clap

04r1150rs · Oct 20, 2006

All this talk on diff fluids, I think I will change mine every 3,000 miles when the crankcase is being changed. Heck it's only about 8 oz (off the top of my head), what will it hurt. Oh well that's what I'll be doing

henzilla · Apr 2, 2007

Final drive fluid change R12RT

OK,
opening up this thread again...have done everything EXCEPT final drive fluid change on an '05 R1200RT...

Has anyone done one yet at the home shop? since the non -existent drain plug is the issue on this model, am I really going to have to drop the drive unit loose so I can drain from fill hole? I have seen some pictures somewhere and feel comfortable enough to tackle it...but what a PITA for something so possibly troublesome enough to put off "till later" Have had the bike since last May and this has not been done since. I have the records of the original flush/replacement on the service bulletin being done...I have added about 15K since then.

Sure is easier and no bother on the 1100 & 1150's!!

and hanging it from the rafters from the front wheel is LAST RESORT

kbasa · Apr 2, 2007

henzilla said:
OK,
opening up this thread again...have done everything EXCEPT final drive fluid change on an '05 R1200RT...

Has anyone done one yet at the home shop? since the non -existent drain plug is the issue on this model, am I really going to have to drop the drive unit loose so I can drain from fill hole? I have seen some pictures somewhere and feel comfortable enough to tackle it...but what a PITA for something so possibly troublesome enough to put off "till later" Have had the bike since last May and this has not been done since. I have the records of the original flush/replacement on the service bulletin being done...I have added about 15K since then.

Sure is easier and no bother on the 1100 & 1150's!!

and hanging it from the rafters from the front wheel is LAST RESORT

It's pretty straightforward. There are pictorials around the web and may be one here somewhere.

cjack · Apr 2, 2007

KBasa said:
It's pretty straightforward. There are pictorials around the web and may be one here somewhere.

Also there is a drain hole, it's the rear plug. The fill hole is thru the ABS hole with a measured amount.

henzilla · Apr 2, 2007

Thanks guys, just needed a

been a MONDAY :bluduh

Now I will put two items at top of this weeks list...and in this order!
#1- Change FD lube on RT
#2- File taxes
# 3 -go ride, to forget 2!

jimvonbaden · Apr 2, 2007

henzilla said:
OK,
opening up this thread again...have done everything EXCEPT final drive fluid change on an '05 R1200RT...

Has anyone done one yet at the home shop? since the non -existent drain plug is the issue on this model, am I really going to have to drop the drive unit loose so I can drain from fill hole? I have seen some pictures somewhere and feel comfortable enough to tackle it...but what a PITA for something so possibly troublesome enough to put off "till later" Have had the bike since last May and this has not been done since. I have the records of the original flush/replacement on the service bulletin being done...I have added about 15K since then.

Sure is easier and no bother on the 1100 & 1150's!!

and hanging it from the rafters from the front wheel is LAST RESORT

Check out this thread I did. It makes it pretty simple. http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=15342

Also, check out my sigline for a DVD on R1200 maintenance.

Jim :brow

henzilla · Apr 2, 2007

Thanks Jim, ( aka the Kool-AidGuy

)
Knew you were putting it together, I'm in!

henzilla · Apr 7, 2007

JimVonBaden1 said:
Check out this thread I did. It makes it pretty simple. http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?t=15342

Also, check out my sigline for a DVD on R1200 maintenance.

Jim

Raining here and another reminder we are still not far from you folks still enduring winter :stick

... actually supposed to freeze west/north of Austin tonight...I know...WAAAAA! All the peach trees in the western Hill Country have fruit on them...completely wiped them out in 2006 ,so hope not again! No fresh peach ice cream come June is not a happy thought!

ANYWAYS, got the final drive lube done this AM, not as easy as the 1100/1150's , but was done in under a hour and a bump. Check out this Wal-mart find for a funnel...the tip fit snug in the fill hole. It has a on/off feature and I hung it from the case mounts and let it fill...called a Hoppy , made in Kansas . Will be using it on transmission fills now also

hopkinsmfg.com

Thanks again for the tips Jim!

henzilla · Apr 7, 2007

NOT a failure

:doh

And, after 19K miles I added since June 06 when I bought the bike with 10K and the 600 mile change was documented, the fluid looked used like Jim's photo. It looked fine with no burnt smell ,just the lovely fragrance of used gear oil.

You could tell it had Moly in it. My speed sensor had fuzz on it, but no shavings were found. YEAH!
I added the Moly anyways, since I had some using Paul G's ratio, Since it will be a regular piece of annual maintenance now, I will see what goes!

and a site to use for conversions for us non- math wiz's and measuring beakers with OZ's only in the shop:

http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/conversions.html

marcopolo · Jul 20, 2007

Going back to the original topic of this thread, I'm sitting here in a hotel room in Salt Lake City, with my wife. My bike is at BMW of SLC awaiting parts from California after it suffered a final drive failure while I was in Wyoming. SLC was closest dealer -- five hour drive away (bike was loaded into pickup (friend's) and off I went. As pointed out in a BMW service bulletine, I experienced significant play in the rear wheel -- it was the splines on the axle tube, and the splines on the rotor flange. They were grinding, and leaving lots of residue, but the real sign was the wiggle in the rear end, which I first thought was my new Pilot Roads (after running Z6s). Fix is to replace the complete final drive assembly, plus the flange and rotor, along with lug nuts etc.

This has really screwed up my five-week cross-continent ride.

Check the play in the rear wheel is the message.

BTW, I have an '06 RT with 38,000 kms (about 22,000 miles), and it's 15 months old. No argument whatsoever abou warranty coverage.

dpmonk · Jul 21, 2007

blasphemous thought

I am the happy (so far) owner of an 1150RT. I think I will keep it until it self destructs or just dies of old age. But unless BMW offers a lifetime warranty on their rear ends I am afraid that my next purchase may be a H1800GW.
I cannot imagine a motorcycle more fun in the twisties than the RT (I have to admit that I am kind of lusting after a F800ST for one up riding).
I just can't justify the paranoia associated with the Final Drive failure or dry splines when I next fork over a lot of money for a long range rider.

like I said, I am happy so far with my 04 RT, but a riding partner with an identical bike has already had the FD replaced and the ABS modulator went out just after warranty and destroyed a front caliper and rotor. BMW did pay for parts $1800+- but he had to foot the labor.

Imagine that, 32k valve adjustments.

Yuck.

twins4life · Jul 23, 2007

GlobalRider said:
You should have read that "other" thread. BMW is going back to putting a drain plug in the rear wheel drive units for 2007. When I saw the R1200 GS at the show when it first came out, I wondered about BMW's reasoning for omitting one.

BTW, this is Kawasaki's version of the Paralever. Although not employing a single sided swingarm, we'll see if the new Concours has the same problems. Come to think about it, why do I even need a single sided swingarm? For easy rear wheel removal? Like how often to I take the rear wheel off?

Holy trailing arm Batman! Look at the linkages on the final drive! And a "auto-compress on brake" front end.

And the engine layout is a marvel of simplicity, plus the added fun of pressurized water cooling. :lurk

Hmmmmmmmm

R1200RT Rear Drive Failure

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