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What does the looming ICE ban mean for BMW motorcycles?

kbasa said:
Except that we passed State Bill 1 a few years ago and then, when someone got repealing it on the ballot a couple years later, it was roundly defeated and we've continued the tax.

Look at any of the roads projects here and you'll usually see the big SB1 sign on it. WRT to taxation to pay for all the stuff in the IRA, unless you make more than $400K/year or you're a corporation that has successfully evaded paying taxes, you're not going to see a change in your taxes.

I don't mind paying for taxes if I feel like I'm getting my money's worth. Increasingly over the last few years here, I feel like I am.
Click to expand...

Yes, we passed SB 1, but that's a day late and dollar short-so to speak. Yes, it's better than nothing, but it's only a drop in the bucket for what is needed, IMO. The roads you drive on must be in better condition than the ones I have to drive on. My job takes me all over the Bay Area in good and not so good areas (I've been in them all). The streets in some locations are just in terrible condition. It's the thoroughfares, access roads, highways, etc. that typically get the money while the side streets get little to no attention. Some side streets look like they've seen no maintenance in decades. I've hit so many potholes that I've given up with wheel alignments, since they only seem to last a few months before a pothole knocks them out of alignment. Yes, I wear out tires quicker, but it's actually less expensive than getting a couple wheel alignments a year.

Sorry that this is another tangent to the original thread.
 
Hyundai is ready to spend billions in Georgia to make EV batteries: https://www.thedrive.com/news/hyund...w-ev-battery-plant-in-georgia-to-open-in-2025

After months of handwringing and negotiations with the U.S. government, South Korean automaker Hyundai announced Thursday that it would build a sprawling battery plant in Georgia to supply its upcoming electric cars with locally sourced batteries. The battery plant is expected to open in 2025.
The announcement, which didn’t specify a cost for the facility, said it would offer up to 3,500 jobs and inject $4-$5 billion into Bartow County, which is 45 miles north of Atlanta. According to the statement, Hyundai and SK On, the EV battery subsidiary of SK Innovation, signed an agreement for the new facility. SK already operates a battery facility in Commerce, Georgia, which is about 70 miles northeast of Atlanta.
In October, Hyundai began constructing its separate $5.5 billion electric car production plant and battery facility in Bryan County, Georgia. Hyundai and its South Korean owners have been among the loudest opponents of the considerable restructuring of electric car incentives with the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act. After its passage, electric cars from foreign automakers such as Hyundai were subject to stricter sourcing and assembly requirements, which would exclude many of Hyundai’s growing number of electric vehicles.

tl;dr: Hyundai, in response to the IRA requirements for domestic manufacturing, is investing billions in Georgia.
 
Chiming in kind of late, but as someone who’s jumped in with both feet so to speak, here are some of my thoughts:
  • I have solar, a Tesla Model Y, a Chevy Bolt, and an Energica Ribelle. My R1200RT is a recent addition for longer rides.
  • Despite the aggressive timelines many areas are instituting, I don’t think they’ll be able to achieve the switch that easily or quickly.
  • I wouldn’t be surprised if one or two major manufacturers spend even more on R&D regarding hydrogen vehicles.
  • Since EVs do require you to rethink and adjust how you relate to and use your vehicle, whether a car or a motorcycle, and since there are many use cases where current EV technology doesn’t make sense, I don’t think ICE is going away any time soon unless as I mentioned above, something like hydrogen powered vehicles come into play.
  • In the case of BMW motorcycles, since many of the models are designed for touring, I just don’t see them being able to make the switch to pure battery even if they wanted to. I did a ride a few months ago on my electric motorcycle that turned what would have been a 3 hour or so ride on an ICE bike into a 5+ hour ride. That’s what prompted me to look into buying an ICE bike again even though I’ve been pure electric for the last 3+ years. While the charging infrastructure was fine, it was just the length of time spent charging that was a drag. Electric motorcycles currently aren’t capable of the charging speeds that many electric cars are capable of, even with DC charging. My Ribelle hasn’t charged at speeds much above 15kw or so although other Ribelle owners have reported charging speeds upwards of 20kw. Even that is significantly slower than my Chevy Bolt which is my slower charging car on DC.
 
bigpoppa said:
Chiming in kind of late, but as someone who’s jumped in with both feet so to speak, here are some of my thoughts:
  • I have solar, a Tesla Model Y, a Chevy Bolt, and an Energica Ribelle. My R1200RT is a recent addition for longer rides.
  • Despite the aggressive timelines many areas are instituting, I don’t think they’ll be able to achieve the switch that easily or quickly.
  • I wouldn’t be surprised if one or two major manufacturers spend even more on R&D regarding hydrogen vehicles.
  • Since EVs do require you to rethink and adjust how you relate to and use your vehicle, whether a car or a motorcycle, and since there are many use cases where current EV technology doesn’t make sense, I don’t think ICE is going away any time soon unless as I mentioned above, something like hydrogen powered vehicles come into play.
  • In the case of BMW motorcycles, since many of the models are designed for touring, I just don’t see them being able to make the switch to pure battery even if they wanted to. I did a ride a few months ago on my electric motorcycle that turned what would have been a 3 hour or so ride on an ICE bike into a 5+ hour ride. That’s what prompted me to look into buying an ICE bike again even though I’ve been pure electric for the last 3+ years. While the charging infrastructure was fine, it was just the length of time spent charging that was a drag. Electric motorcycles currently aren’t capable of the charging speeds that many electric cars are capable of, even with DC charging. My Ribelle hasn’t charged at speeds much above 15kw or so although other Ribelle owners have reported charging speeds upwards of 20kw. Even that is significantly slower than my Chevy Bolt which is my slower charging car on DC.
Click to expand...

Do you have a setup to charge your car and bike from the solar source? If so, do you use a storage battery and charging system? (e.g. Generac, Tesla, etc.) and if so, how did you integrate it? I have looked for an (essentially) off-the-shelf integrated solar panel, battery, vehicle charging setup and cannot seem to find anything. Always seems to be a lot of expensive engineering involved. We situated our house to take advantage of solar and will install it once it makes economic sense... and that we can do standby power (we live in the mountains in a rural area, power company does not offer 3-phase service).

Has anyone been following what Cummins is doing with hydrogen engines? It seems like over-the-road trucks would be a good place for hydrogen, since the fuel is pretty difficult to handle in the consumer market.

Hurtigruten, a Norwegian cruise operator, is doing some very cool things with hybrid ships.

I personally think that passenger cars are not the lowest-hanging fruit for a lot of people who do not live in dense urban areas, and it's a little frustrating that the government is deforming the market via subsidies and artificial fossil fuel production restrictions aimed at increasing the price of gas (and strategic lubricants), which is going to hit to people least able to afford it first. Not looking to start an argument, I think this subject was discussed earlier in this thread. :hungover

Unfortunately, I think I will be dead before e-motos are priced right. Today they are premium priced. I test rode Zero DSRs but bought a Honda CB500X, essentially the same bike for 1/3rd the price. If that Zero were just twice the price of the Honda I would have bought it because the bulk of my riding is <100mile loops from home.
 
Visian said:
Do you have a setup to charge your car and bike from the solar source? If so, do you use a storage battery and charging system? (e.g. Generac, Tesla, etc.) and if so, how did you integrate it? I have looked for an (essentially) off-the-shelf integrated solar panel, battery, vehicle charging setup and cannot seem to find anything. Always seems to be a lot of expensive engineering involved. We situated our house to take advantage of solar and will install it once it makes economic sense... and that we can do standby power (we live in the mountains in a rural area, power company does not offer 3-phase service).

Has anyone been following what Cummins is doing with hydrogen engines? It seems like over-the-road trucks would be a good place for hydrogen, since the fuel is pretty difficult to handle in the consumer market.

Hurtigruten, a Norwegian cruise operator, is doing some very cool things with hybrid ships.

I personally think that passenger cars are not the lowest-hanging fruit for a lot of people who do not live in dense urban areas, and it's a little frustrating that the government is deforming the market via subsidies and artificial fossil fuel production restrictions aimed at increasing the price of gas (and strategic lubricants), which is going to hit to people least able to afford it first. Not looking to start an argument, I think this subject was discussed earlier in this thread. :hungover

Unfortunately, I think I will be dead before e-motos are priced right. Today they are premium priced. I test rode Zero DSRs but bought a Honda CB500X, essentially the same bike for 1/3rd the price. If that Zero were just twice the price of the Honda I would have bought it because the bulk of my riding is <100mile loops from home.
Click to expand...

We might have said that same thing about PV panels, home storage arrays and EVs in general ten years ago, though, so I'd think we'll see considerable development in EV motorcycles. Zero is making pretty solid strides and once they get to 125 or so miles of range, it'd be able to do about 99% of my riding. I don't really tour anymore and barely ride outside my county, so that kind of range is great. It's about what I used to get out of my R11S, which was perfectly adequate.

Honda seems to be moving forward hard with a replaceable battery pack for scooters in other countries and solid state batteries certainly have begun to show promise. Things are going to evolve rapidly in the next few years as companies seek to be part of this pivot away from petroleum.

https://electrek.co/2022/10/27/honda-swappable-battery-stations-electric-motorbikes/

Toyota's all in for solid state batteries, which could dramatically change EVs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QerZEed4-wE
 
The author of this emag thinks eVTOLs are the future rather than ebikes for the premium motorcycle segment like BMW. In issue 118 he covers the Aerwins Xturismo Flying Bike EVTOL. Issue 117 discussed The Death of Premium Electric Motorcycles. He makes some good points.
 
mikegalbicka said:
The author of this emag thinks eVTOLs are the future rather than ebikes for the premium motorcycle segment like BMW. In issue 118 he covers the Aerwins Xturismo Flying Bike EVTOL. Issue 117 discussed The Death of Premium Electric Motorcycles. He makes some good points.
Click to expand...

This guy used to write for BMW Owners News a number of years ago, and was also involved in a number of Motorrad marketing campaigns in North America. He has a lot of interesting ideas.

Flying bikes would be a blast.
 
Omega Man said:
IRA- The Inflation Recovery Act? Government funding? Really making taxpayers fund research that will develop technology only really economically comfortable people can benefit from.
OM
Click to expand...

It was the same for the automobile way back when. Once the technology catches up with the demand, we'll be good to go. Not everyone can afford a car so not everyone will buy an EV.
 
kbasa said:
Toyota's all in for solid state batteries, which could dramatically change EVs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QerZEed4-wE
Click to expand...

And there lies the potential, but work remains to be done.

If you're going EV, and drive long distance on occasion, you would be wise to keep an ICE in the garage until the solid state is further developed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/clim...electric-vehicles-night-that-will-be-problem/

Getting back to the original post - in the meantime you have this. https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/models/urban_mobility/ce04.html Something that looks like it was designed in my neighbor's garage. I'm sorry. I'm being a grumpy old man again. If I have offended your sensibilities, I apologize while recommending a trip to the local grocery store for some more Cool Aide.:buds ;)



E.
 
kbasa said:
Zero is making pretty solid strides and once they get to 125 or so miles of range, it'd be able to do about 99% of my riding. I don't really tour anymore and barely ride outside my county, so that kind of range is great. It's about what I used to get out of my R11S, which was perfectly adequate.

….

https://electrek.co/2022/10/27/honda-swappable-battery-stations-electric-motorbikes/

Toyota's all in for solid state batteries, which could dramatically change EVs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QerZEed4-wE
Click to expand...

Wall Street Journal test of Zero DSRX (the adv version of the DSR)

This bike is way too heavy. It needs Toyota’s new battery. The writer also mentions the lack of a clutch which reduces control on rough/soft surfaces, where feathering the clutch is essential.

The standard DSR is such a sweet bike and less heavy (but still borderline heavy). Yet my main fear is putting $25k into a bike just to see it’s battery technology become passé in just a few years.

That said, for shorter rides, the DSR is an exceptional experience. Riding in near silence on twisty mountain roads is a real treat.

I am thinking hard about the Zero FX, which costs less but does less, too. Also thinking I’ll wait and see what HoYaKaSu will come out with. BMW does not seem to be in the picture, maybe they will surprise us with the 100th anniversary bike.
 
Visian said:
Wall Street Journal test of Zero DSRX (the adv version of the DSR)

This bike is way too heavy. It needs Toyota’s new battery.

The standard DSR is such a sweet bike and less heavy (but still borderline heavy). Yet my main fear is putting $25k into a bike just to see it’s battery technology become passé in just a few years.

That said, for shorter rides, the DSR is an exceptional experience. Riding in near silence on twisty mountain roads is a real treat.

I am thinking hard about the Zero FX, which costs less but does less, too. Also thinking I’ll wait and see what HoYaKaSu will come out with. BMW does not seem to be in the picture, maybe they will surprise us with the 100th anniversary bike.
Click to expand...

Concerns about battery or “other” proprietary components are smart and realistic. One of the things I liked about the electric bike in this thread- https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?96178-Electric-bikes-gone-wild was the battery was from Panasonic. Some of the best batteries (common sizes) I have ever used have been Panasonic.
Spending a lot of money on something that could be “unsupported” in the future really defeats “sustainability”.

https://www.wpri.com/news/portsmouths-broken-wind-turbine-coming-down/

This Portsmouth Rhode Island initial installation was featured on a TV show called “World’s Toughest Fixes”.

OM
 
henzilla said:
From post#90, BMW top in design :lol
Click to expand...

Exsqueeze me but I would not be caught dead on that thing. It befuddles me why BMW isn't making a normal electric bike.

KTM, on the other hand, is locking the young'uns into the orange with e-motocross bikes and e-balance bikes. My twin granddaughters love em!

17A19FE0-342E-4B31-90E2-7DE0239AC6D0_1_102_o-X3.jpg



 
Last edited:
Visian said:
Exsqueeze me but I would not be caught dead on that thing. It befuddles me why BMW isn't making a normal electric bike.

KTM, on the other hand, is locking the young'uns into the orange with e-motocross bikes and e-balance bikes. My twin granddaughters love em!

17A19FE0-342E-4B31-90E2-7DE0239AC6D0_1_102_o-X3.jpg



Click to expand...

I just showed the pic :dunno

I agree they are way behind the curve, and yes , that scoot is bland to say the least compared to the markets offerings.
 
henzilla said:
I just showed the pic :dunno

I agree they are way behind the curve, and yes , that scoot is bland to say the least compared to the markets offerings.
Click to expand...

Sorry, sidn't mean to sound negative to you, more negative regarding why BMW designs weird things like that scooter but not real-world functional/practical products. The design of that scooter is a matter of taste, I don't hate it, I just can't see myself riding it. It's too "Tron." I don't think it's a particularly good solution to urban mobility problems either, it's excessive.

I really like that Zero DSR... it's a well-crafted motorcycle and outside of range limitations, it can fulfill a lot of missions.

It would be great to ride a mid-size BMW electric motorcycle.

Screen%20Shot%202022-12-10%20at%202.32.44%20PM-XL.png


Screen%20Shot%202022-12-10%20at%202.30.18%20PM-XL.png
 
Visian said:
Do you have a setup to charge your car and bike from the solar source? If so, do you use a storage battery and charging system? (e.g. Generac, Tesla, etc.) and if so, how did you integrate it? I have looked for an (essentially) off-the-shelf integrated solar panel, battery, vehicle charging setup and cannot seem to find anything. Always seems to be a lot of expensive engineering involved. We situated our house to take advantage of solar and will install it once it makes economic sense... and that we can do standby power (we live in the mountains in a rural area, power company does not offer 3-phase service).

Has anyone been following what Cummins is doing with hydrogen engines? It seems like over-the-road trucks would be a good place for hydrogen, since the fuel is pretty difficult to handle in the consumer market.

Hurtigruten, a Norwegian cruise operator, is doing some very cool things with hybrid ships.

I personally think that passenger cars are not the lowest-hanging fruit for a lot of people who do not live in dense urban areas, and it's a little frustrating that the government is deforming the market via subsidies and artificial fossil fuel production restrictions aimed at increasing the price of gas (and strategic lubricants), which is going to hit to people least able to afford it first. Not looking to start an argument, I think this subject was discussed earlier in this thread. :hungover

Unfortunately, I think I will be dead before e-motos are priced right. Today they are premium priced. I test rode Zero DSRs but bought a Honda CB500X, essentially the same bike for 1/3rd the price. If that Zero were just twice the price of the Honda I would have bought it because the bulk of my riding is <100mile loops from home.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, when I had my solar system installed some time ago (6 years now I think…) I still had to be connected to the power grid so my solar only pumps energy back into the grid. Essentially giving me a credit on my power usage. I believe that since then, PG&E (Northern California energy provider) has exceptions where as long as you have some kind of storage system, you can pull your home off the grid but I’m not 100% sure on that and could be wrong.

As a result, I don’t charge my vehicles directly from my solar panels. I wish I could pull my home off the grid but since it’s part of a larger housing development that’s probably not likely. Maybe folks in more rural areas get the option.

You’re right about the current use case for electric motorcycles. Doing anything other than commuting does require a certain degree of determination. Like I said, it’s not so much the availability of chargers, at least here in California, but the time spent charging when motorcycles can’t charge at the same speed as many electric cars, even with CCS DC charging capability. The cost is definitely a premium. It’s an individual call if the price premium is worth it. For me, since most of my “recent” ICE bike purchases were around the $25k mark anyway (Ducati’s and touring bikes), when I thought I was done touring, it didn’t feel like a stretch to spend about the same amount on an electric with about a 100 mile freeway range.
 
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