• Welcome, Guest! We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMW MOA forum provides. Some forum content will be hidden from you if you remain logged out. If you want to view all content, please click the 'Log in' button above and enter your BMW MOA username and password.

    If you are not an MOA member, why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the BMW Owners News magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMW MOA offers?

Teslas and motorcycles - a problem

AKsuited

New member
Tesla has removed radar from some models, resulting in tragedies:

<iframe width="1182" height="665" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yRdzIs4FJJg" title="Is Tesla Autopilot Killing Motorcycle Riders?" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Well while Tesla seems unconcerned about motorcyclists, my 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 EV has a "Driver Assistance Mode 2" which uses a radar system and cameras to see motorcycles and displays a box (also used for cars/trucks, etc.) on the dash display and the HUD. Perhaps future versions will have a symbol which looks like a motorcycle in the display.
 
My Prius Prime does not have "autopilot," but it does have radar for "adaptive cruise control."

I generally avoid riding at night and would suggest anyone riding after dark wear a white helmet with reflective tape, as well as a jacket with retroreflective material like an Aerostich Roadcrafter jacket. I would hope a Tesla would see those reflective patches.

Harry
 
The hell with the computer, I would hope that the driver of the car is paying attention...
 
That’s cool. How well does it work?

It works great. and I can easily attach it to multiple helmets. Because it sits high (on your head) it can be seen by multiple cars in traffic as well, as long as tall vehicle don't block its line of sight. I think it's better than low mounted tail lights by a long shot, and I've noticed cars behind me leave me more space than before having it. If you think cars are too close you can bob your head a little bit to activate the braking pattern and see if they give it some more thought.
 
Along the same lines, I just picked up a GMAX FF-98 helmet for my daughter. It also has a built in led light, that has four modes including a pretty cool “Knight Rider” setting. It’s a solid helmet without the light, but it does add to the value. Also GMAX sells a transmitter that taps into your brake lights and makes the helmet light into a brake light. Thats just a little extra coin. Anything to add conspicuity is good in my book. I also saw FortNines damn scary video, and omg it’s a shocker.https://www.denniskirk.com/gmax/ff-98-helmet.pfp3313840.prdf
 
I'm in the industry so I can say that everything FortNine is reporting on is correct. Every industry expert and every company in the automotive world uses sensor data augmented by maps & vision but never just one. Everyone I've spoken to thinks it's insane that Tesla would rely on vision only. Ryan is correct, there is no depth perception with a bike with two tiny brake lights. Radar would augment that.

Second, on the topic even my BMW R18 which has automatic cruise control (same that's on the new R1250RT) doesn't see motorcycles unless I'm right behind them. That's a radar sensor. If I'm right behind a GS, it will see it, if we're riding on separate sides of the lane, it won't and it'll speed up and pass them if I have the speed set high enough. So even BMW motorcycles DON"T see motorcycles via Radar in all conditions which is why you combine radar with vision.

All I'm saying is every single vehicle has blind spots. 8 cameras, 12 radars, lidar, etc. there's no perfect system which is why we're so far off from self driving cars. AutoPilot / full Self driving on Tesla are terribly named. We're not there yet and drivers are ultimately responsible for anything they hit when behind the wheel. This goes for any automotive driver and now, motorcycle rider since we have sensors too (lane assist + acc).

I believe the ultimate solution is mesh. Every vehicle has a standard beacon that broadcasts location, speed and any movements like changing lanes or exiting to all vehicles within a 250 foot radius. Honda came up with this 15 years ago but every car would have to adopt it and that means getting rid of classic cars or cars made after X date because until every car had it, the mesh network wasn't going to work. so that idea is still on hold but had we started rolling it out 15 years ago, we'd almost be ready to flip the switch for a local mesh network of all cars. It would help. This bike would have been broadcasting its location ahead of the Tesla's vision seeing it.
 
It works great. and I can easily attach it to multiple helmets. Because it sits high (on your head) it can be seen by multiple cars in traffic as well, as long as tall vehicle don't block its line of sight. I think it's better than low mounted tail lights by a long shot, and I've noticed cars behind me leave me more space than before having it. If you think cars are too close you can bob your head a little bit to activate the braking pattern and see if they give it some more thought.

Thanks, one other question I forgot. How heavy is it?
 
I believe the ultimate solution is mesh. Every vehicle has a standard beacon that broadcasts location, speed and any movements like changing lanes or exiting to all vehicles within a 250 foot radius. Honda came up with this 15 years ago but every car would have to adopt it and that means getting rid of classic cars or cars made after X date because until every car had it, the mesh network wasn't going to work. so that idea is still on hold but had we started rolling it out 15 years ago, we'd almost be ready to flip the switch for a local mesh network of all cars. It would help. This bike would have been broadcasting its location ahead of the Tesla's vision seeing it.
Who's going to ensure every person, pet, wild animal and anything else that could end up on a road has a transponder implanted so they aren't subject to being turned into road pizza?
 
Who's going to ensure every person, pet, wild animal and anything else that could end up on a road has a transponder implanted so they aren't subject to being turned into road pizza?


Honda's concept only applied to interstates so you'd enter auto mode on interstates only where bicycles, pedestrians, horses, etc aren't allowed. Deer for example would need to be seen by the vision / radar sensor, a feature a lot of luxury cars already have.

Here's one Tesla example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJoe8hwu_I but my truck detects animals too and GM's night-vision will show and highlight animals using high tech cameras. So the tech is out there, just not mass market yet.
 
Anyone have an idea on how these “optical” sensors work as they get dirty? In the Northeast, when salt season starts, it doesn’t take long for highway vehicles to start looking like a frosted Pop-Tart?
OM
 
Honda's concept only applied to interstates so you'd enter auto mode on interstates only where bicycles, pedestrians, horses, etc aren't allowed. Deer for example would need to be seen by the vision / radar sensor, a feature a lot of luxury cars already have.

Here's one Tesla example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJoe8hwu_I but my truck detects animals too and GM's night-vision will show and highlight animals using high tech cameras. So the tech is out there, just not mass market yet.

Interstate is certainly a little more controlable an environment than what Tesla et el are trying to achieve. However, the point I was subtly trying to make is there is no combination of sensors that are going to be idjut proof all the time for the foreseeable future. Multiple sensors are going to continue to have disagreements, which other than cost is probably one of the reasons Tesla removed radar - so they have a single version of the truth. Multiple sensors increase likelihood of "annoying" false alarms/rractions but still can miss things like animals, potholes or any other day to day obstacle we as drivers need to deal with.
 
Anyone have an idea on how these “optical” sensors work as they get dirty? In the Northeast, when salt season starts, it doesn’t take long for highway vehicles to start looking like a frosted Pop-Tart?
OM

My wife has a new Subaru that uses optical "EyeSight" and it's built in behind the windshield. So the only time it might get dirty is if you are spraying the inside of the windshield to clean it..... which the manual tells you not to do...
 
My wife has a new Subaru that uses optical "EyeSight" and it's built in behind the windshield. So the only time it might get dirty is if you are spraying the inside of the windshield to clean it..... which the manual tells you not to do...

So, you are saying that your windshield never gets dirty?




:dance:dance:dance
 
Interstate is certainly a little more controlable an environment than what Tesla et el are trying to achieve. However, the point I was subtly trying to make is there is no combination of sensors that are going to be idjut proof all the time for the foreseeable future. Multiple sensors are going to continue to have disagreements, which other than cost is probably one of the reasons Tesla removed radar - so they have a single version of the truth. Multiple sensors increase likelihood of "annoying" false alarms/rractions but still can miss things like animals, potholes or any other day to day obstacle we as drivers need to deal with.



Like with all technology, it’s going to become idiot proof at some point. Not every tech gets perfect in our lifetime but automotive is moving very fast. Autonomous in the next 35 years as in no more steering wheels is very likely. Autonomous on interstate only much sooner.

There are currently false alarms a LOT.
 
Anyone have an idea on how these “optical” sensors work as they get dirty? In the Northeast, when salt season starts, it doesn’t take long for highway vehicles to start looking like a frosted Pop-Tart?
OM

Driving in snow, especially wet snow, I have had the cruise control on my Prius Prime stop working. It was due to slush build up on the radar. When the radar quit working, the cruise control turned itself off. That was because the "adaptive cruise control" maintains a safe following distance based on information from the radar system.
 
Back
Top