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Thread: Cardan to be checked and vent valve retrofitted on a total of 440,000 motorcycles

  1. #46
    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    That CRC Sta-Lube Molygraph is NOT suitable for the splines - it's only about 3% (max) moly.
    u8pgb1iawxvd6jylwi2j.pdf

  2. #47
    Cum opus clava fecit nihi
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    [QUOTE=adamchandler;1285097]I found ADVPulse's article about this to be the most well written and thorough investigation - https://www.advpulse.com/adv-news/bm...-r1200-1250gs/[/QUOTE

    Does anyone attribute the presence of water in the swing arm to be due to condensation as the artical suggests? I had the impression that is was ingress rather than condensation.

  3. #48
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat Omega Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioFlyer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adamchandler View Post
    I found ADVPulse's article about this to be the most well written and thorough investigation - https://www.advpulse.com/adv-news/bm...-r1200-1250gs/
    Does anyone attribute the presence of water in the swing arm to be due to condensation as the artical suggests? I had the impression that is was ingress rather than condensation.
    I donít specifically. I have direct-drive PTOís (power take-offs) that is basically the same deal and they will suffer from condensation rust-cycles.
    Every time there is a wetting and drying, itís a rust cycle. It is why trucks plowing snow have so much rust in the (hot) engine areas.
    OM
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  4. #49
    Registered User AKsuited's Avatar
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    color me skeptical

    We've been through this rusty driveshaft splines issue in the past. The most likely cause of the rust was from inadequate lubrication which caused fretting, and not from moisture. I had this on my K75 a long time ago. I switched to Valvoline SynPower full-synthetic grease with moly and I saw no more rusty splines after that.

    Come on, BMW!

    Harry
    My fleet: 2015 R1200GS, 2017 Toyota Prius Prime (plug-in hybrid)

  5. #50
    Cum opus clava fecit nihi
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    I saw a post elsewhere that suggested that lubricating the splines front and rear is now part of the BMW recommended regular service. Does anyone know what the recommended time/distance service interval is? I have seen JVB's recommendation but am curious about what BMW says.

  6. #51
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioFlyer View Post
    I saw a post elsewhere that suggested that lubricating the splines front and rear is now part of the BMW recommended regular service. Does anyone know what the recommended time/distance service interval is? I have seen JVB's recommendation but am curious about what BMW says.
    I have never seen it called out since owning my first BMW a 07 LT.

    Early air heads had it called out once a year.

    Since there is no DVD who knows what BMW is calling out. Well there are DVD's but I have a OEM for my 17.5 GS. It is the 1250 where owners took a beating. That said plenty of 1250 DVD's on Flea Bay.

    I have been lubing splines since my 2015 RT. Both dry and rusted from new.

    It really is a simple procedure and if your doing rear brake pads or a tire change you got a lot of the work done to make it even easier. At most a hour job with cleaning everything and a good lube and sealing the boot and back together. It really is so simple even a Cave Man Can Do It.

    Save a lot of anxiety and just do the service yourself, clean it well and lube the snot out of it.

    If something is bathed in Moly Paste it can not rust and water will not stay on it it will fling off.

    It really is that simple. Could be more simple if BMW would do it on the line as it is supposed to.
    The above is worth what you paid for it..........
    Lee 2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  7. #52
    Registered User lkraus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioFlyer View Post
    I saw a post elsewhere that suggested that lubricating the splines front and rear is now part of the BMW recommended regular service. Does anyone know what the recommended time/distance service interval is? I have seen JVB's recommendation but am curious about what BMW says.
    Driveshaft spline lubrication has been a required assembly step since at least 2005. It has never been a specific item in the maintenance schedule. The only mention in the maintenance instructions has been when draining older final drives which had no drain plug - but that is really re-assembly.

    IMO, the whole service campaign is being caused by the decision to NOT lube the splines at the factory. The splines are not wearing from friction, because the Paralever design prevents nearly all movement. If the splines actually had to slide, normal riding would break them free of the corrosion before it got so bad the final drive could not be dropped or the shaft pulled free from the transmission. The pictures I've seen after stuck splines have been separated show rust, not wear. The lube prevents the corrosion.

    The Paralever design on the affected bikes is simply a mirror image of Hex/Camheads, which have not had this type of rust trouble but were built at a time when the factory was still following BMW's own assembly instructions.

    I have to drop my FD to drain the oil every 2 years/40,000 km (24000 mi), and I have always found the splines to still be well lubricated. I do freshen the lube at re-assembly, but I think the interval could easily be doubled.

    The drain vents may have some value if you are submerging the swing arm in water, but I think well-sealed boots and lubed splines will keep the splines of a street bike rust free.
    Larry
    2006 R1200RT

  8. #53
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkraus View Post

    The Paralever design on the affected bikes is simply a mirror image of Hex/Camheads, which have not had this type of rust trouble but were built at a time when the factory was still following BMW's own assembly instructions.


    The drain vents may have some value if you are submerging the swing arm in water, but I think well-sealed boots and lubed splines will keep the splines of a street bike rust free.
    Donít disagree on the initial assembly lacking lube more than in the past.

    I still believe some of this is owner caused with using pressure washers. Spraying high velocity water where design no doubt only has natural water exposure accounted for. Personal experience on several folks bikes when finding water when dropping FD, including a low(10K) mileage GSA I picked up that already had a torn front boot and a pressure washer sitting next to bike when I picked it up spotless. Got home, dropped FD for a service and replacement of the front boot and over a quart of rusty water came flowing out!

    I ask the owners if they use the car wash and how closely they place spray wandÖ. Most admit often and super close!
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  9. #54
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkraus View Post
    Driveshaft spline lubrication has been a required assembly step since at least 2005. It has never been a specific item in the maintenance schedule. The only mention in the maintenance instructions has been when draining older final drives which had no drain plug - but that is really re-assembly.

    IMO, the whole service campaign is being caused by the decision to NOT lube the splines at the factory. The splines are not wearing from friction, because the Paralever design prevents nearly all movement. If the splines actually had to slide, normal riding would break them free of the corrosion before it got so bad the final drive could not be dropped or the shaft pulled free from the transmission. The pictures I've seen after stuck splines have been separated show rust, not wear. The lube prevents the corrosion.

    The Paralever design on the affected bikes is simply a mirror image of Hex/Camheads, which have not had this type of rust trouble but were built at a time when the factory was still following BMW's own assembly instructions.

    I have to drop my FD to drain the oil every 2 years/40,000 km (24000 mi), and I have always found the splines to still be well lubricated. I do freshen the lube at re-assembly, but I think the interval could easily be doubled.

    The drain vents may have some value if you are submerging the swing arm in water, but I think well-sealed boots and lubed splines will keep the splines of a street bike rust free.
    It really is this simple!

    Why did 85% of the cam checks I did need set?

    Why was my 15 RT and 17.5 GS bone dry with no lube new?

    Why were brake calipers that leaked put into production?

    Why did bad shocks start a No Sale on LC bikes?

    Why are cams disintegrating with the owner paying crazy sums for new cams and followers?

    All the same reason, BMW has poor QC.

    This particular issue is solved with our own time in dropping, cleaning, and then lubing the splines that BMW SHOULD have done on the line.
    The above is worth what you paid for it..........
    Lee 2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFarling View Post
    It really is this simple!

    Why did 85% of the cam checks I did need set?

    Why was my 15 RT and 17.5 GS bone dry with no lube new?

    Why were brake calipers that leaked put into production?

    Why did bad shocks start a No Sale on LC bikes?

    Why are cams disintegrating with the owner paying crazy sums for new cams and followers?

    All the same reason, BMW has poor QC.

    This particular issue is solved with our own time in dropping, cleaning, and then lubing the splines that BMW SHOULD have done on the line.
    Agree! Question is, why do we keep buying them?
    Ď22 R1250RT
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  11. #56
    Registered User 88bmwjeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFarling View Post
    It really is this simple!

    Why did 85% of the cam checks I did need set?

    Why was my 15 RT and 17.5 GS bone dry with no lube new?

    Why were brake calipers that leaked put into production?

    Why did bad shocks start a No Sale on LC bikes?

    Why are cams disintegrating with the owner paying crazy sums for new cams and followers?

    All the same reason, BMW has poor QC.

    This particular issue is solved with our own time in dropping, cleaning, and then lubing the splines that BMW SHOULD have done on the line.
    I disagree with some of the above statements. BMW doesn't make everything that goes on their vehicles. In many cases, it's the suppliers QC that's to blame not the manufacturers. It wasn't any of the car manufacturers' fault or lack of QC regarding all the Takata airbags that needed (and still need to be) replaced in cars. But, that didn't relieve the manufacturers from responsibility. I don't think it's BMW's lack of QC regarding the Hayes brake calipers, bad shocks, or cam and followers having excessive wear. That's on the suppliers, but that doesn't relieve BMW from responsibility.

    With regards to the lack of lube on the driveshaft splines, that's 100% on BMW. Someone somewhere must have presented a cost benefit of lubing those splines and decided it wasn't necessary. I'm sure it seemed reasonable to them at the time, but in hindsight, not so much. BMW isn't the first, nor will it be the last, company to make a decision that proves to be a poor one for reliability. These things don't bother me too much, since no one's perfect. It's just a part of owning complex vehicles. There are plenty of similar examples from all makes. (FYI, I don't know enough about the CAM checks to make a comment on that one)
    Jeff
    1988 R100 RT (the other woman)
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  12. #57
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88bmwjeff View Post
    I disagree with some of the above statements. BMW doesn't make everything that goes on their vehicles. In many cases, it's the suppliers QC that's to blame not the manufacturers. It wasn't any of the car manufacturers' fault or lack of QC regarding all the Takata airbags that needed (and still need to be) replaced in cars. But, that didn't relieve the manufacturers from responsibility. I don't think it's BMW's lack of QC regarding the Hayes brake calipers, bad shocks, or cam and followers having excessive wear. That's on the suppliers, but that doesn't relieve BMW from responsibility.

    With regards to the lack of lube on the driveshaft splines, that's 100% on BMW. Someone somewhere must have presented a cost benefit of lubing those splines and decided it wasn't necessary. I'm sure it seemed reasonable to them at the time, but in hindsight, not so much. BMW isn't the first, nor will it be the last, company to make a decision that proves to be a poor one for reliability. These things don't bother me too much, since no one's perfect. It's just a part of owning complex vehicles. There are plenty of similar examples from all makes. (FYI, I don't know enough about the CAM checks to make a comment on that one)
    Well IMHO I am not buying components of a motorcycle I am buying a motorcycle.

    QC and BMW need to get it together.

    I cant complain to the company who made bad cams so who is there to complain too?

    Same with all the other flubs. I bought a motorcycle from BMW not BMW and Component Manufacturers.

    I see this as a non issue as I have seen and knew about it and did the service. My splines are clean and swimming in Molly.

    It is the guys who do not frequent Forums or know nothing about turning a wrench that I feel bad for.

    This is something EVERY BMW owner with a shaft drive should perform.

    The fix BMW has started is a placebo and will do nothing to control rust and fretting. It needs lubed!
    Last edited by LFarling; 08-01-2022 at 06:04 PM.
    The above is worth what you paid for it..........
    Lee 2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  13. #58
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motodan View Post
    Agree! Question is, why do we keep buying them?
    Well because I love BMW motorcycles warts and all. I also love spinning a wrench so when I read of a service or find something that may preserve my motorcycle I do it.

    My 07 LT was great. My 15 RT was also great. I fell in love with my 17.5 low GS when with a guy who was bike shopping, I was not. I sat on it and told them to write the deal. I never have looked back. I love my GS.

    My problem is BMW NEVER owns up to anything and puts a lot of financial responsibility onto the customer. I mean if only one set of cams went bad that is one thing, but they are into a very high failure rate and have read of 1250's going too. And guess who pays for the cams and followers. And they are 1400 a set with 4 sets to work with over the Exhaust and Intake. While I have not seen 4 sets worn off I've seen 2 sets. That is 2800 bucks without labor and material I would think once something happens 10 times, or 20 times, you would know there is a problem?

    Again I loved all my BMW's and never had a major failure on any of them. But if I do suffer a Stator failure or a Cam failure I may not be able to afford to fix the bike! That is my fear as my GS is my "die with bike". Retired, fixed income, it may be hard to come up with the money at any given time to free up for a hobby.

    There is no peace of mind for bad parts as BMW does not acknowledge bad or inferior parts. Yet BMW will pay the dealer labor to replace these bad parts but the customer foots the bill for parts.
    The above is worth what you paid for it..........
    Lee 2017.5 R 1200 GSW

  14. #59
    Registered User lkraus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88bmwjeff View Post
    I disagree with some of the above statements. BMW doesn't make everything that goes on their vehicles. In many cases, it's the suppliers QC that's to blame not the manufacturers. It wasn't any of the car manufacturers' fault or lack of QC regarding all the Takata airbags that needed (and still need to be) replaced in cars. But, that didn't relieve the manufacturers from responsibility. I don't think it's BMW's lack of QC regarding the Hayes brake calipers, bad shocks, or cam and followers having excessive wear. That's on the suppliers, but that doesn't relieve BMW from responsibility.
    BMW does not make all the parts, but they choose to put them on their products. To me, that is BMW saying "This component meets BMW standards." When the part subsequently proves faulty, it means that BMW's standards are lacking. It is not enough for the component manufacturer's QC to say these are good enough. It's up to BMW to test the components and verify that BMW's standards are being met before the parts get to the customer and it is BMW that is responsible to the purchaser of their vehicle when those components do not measure up.
    Larry
    2006 R1200RT

  15. #60
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkraus View Post
    BMW does not make all the parts, but they choose to put them on their products. To me, that is BMW saying "This component meets BMW standards." When the part subsequently proves faulty, it means that BMW's standards are lacking. It is not enough for the component manufacturer's QC to say these are good enough. It's up to BMW to test the components and verify that BMW's standards are being met before the parts get to the customer and it is BMW that is responsible to the purchaser of their vehicle when those components do not measure up.
    +1
    The above is worth what you paid for it..........
    Lee 2017.5 R 1200 GSW

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