Right to repair

Interesting read

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/new...llegally-restricting-customers-right-repair-0

Hopefully now that the FCC is involved it may lead to manufactures making manuals available to the consumer.

More here- https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthrea...rger-movement-than-I-thought&highlight=Repair
OM

The concept has come up from time to time, lately on the notion that BMW is no longer providing service manuals. One of the threads in the Similar Threads pane below also discusses the issue.

BMW service manuals are now provided online only

Credit your MOA representatives for being clueless on this topic.

I have the CD manuals for mine (2013 and 2017) but of course some part numbers have changed. Luckily the online parts "microfiche" gives the updated part numbers. I had one on the 2013 that changed three times since the manual was last updated. I still feel confident to continue working on the bikes with the data I have. The local dealer's parts dept. is very cool about selling me parts and doesn't rag on me for working on my own bike. I'm 20 miles from them so it's a real pain to drop the bike off there and I enjoy working on them in my own garage.

lkchris said:

BMW service manuals are now provided online only

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At what cost per hour, or per day, or unlimited?? I recall a cost of a few thousand to get access.

From a thread about repair DVD (un)availablity back in November:

lkraus said:

Speculation on other forums is that BMW is moving motorcycles to a SAE J2534 PassThrough System for all technical documentation and diagnosis. In addition to an interface device, and hefty hardware/software requirements, a subscription to the BMW Technical Information Service would be required at $30/day, $250/month, or $2500/year. This will provide access to online shop "manuals", and some programming capabilities.

The subscription is not a reasonable option for the DIY owner, who needs the information only intermittently.

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I think the TIS is the only way to get official repair procedures from BMW, though I have not tried to use the links for access.

I just got tired of waiting and got a .pdf off of fleabay...

Consumers win when they have choices. I realize that manufactures may not like it, but when they are allowed to undercut independent repair shops they essentially have an monopoly and that’s bad for consumers. I’m glad to see that the FTC recognizes that and is addressing the issue.


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There are a myriad of good reasons the right to repair be enforced for consumers. I'm glad to see that BMW is now offering service data access, but $30 seems steep to me for only 24hr access considering you can get 1 month access on AllData DIY for $20.

jandhumphreyme said:

There are a myriad of good reasons the right to repair be enforced for consumers. I'm glad to see that BMW is now offering service data access, but $30 seems steep to me for only 24hr access considering you can get 1 month access on AllData DIY for $20.

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Does AllData have info on motorcycles? I couldn't find any on their web site. I've used them in the past for auto info and was pleased with their product.

jandhumphreyme said:

There are a myriad of good reasons the right to repair be enforced for consumers. I'm glad to see that BMW is now offering service data access, but $30 seems steep to me for only 24hr access considering you can get 1 month access on AllData DIY for $20.

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IMHO, the system is priced to deliberately discourage use by the general public. And have a good look at the hardware and OS requirements and restrictions that are listed. As the system is structured now, it lets BMW claim they meet RtR requirements as independent shops can pony up their $$ and get the info they need to do service business. For the private owner, not so much.

Best,
DeVern

TracerBullet said:

Interesting read

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/new...llegally-restricting-customers-right-repair-0

Hopefully now that the FCC is involved it may lead to manufactures making manuals available to the consumer.

Click to expand...

This action gives the FTC an excellent opportunity to force large corporations, these two by example, to make good faith efforts to follow the the mandates of Magnuson - Moss.

And, charging $30.00 for one-day access is not a good faith attempt. BMW can do a lot better, but will not do so unless forced.

E.

easy said:

This action gives the FTC an excellent opportunity to force large corporations, these two by example, to make good faith efforts to follow the the mandates of Magnuson - Moss.

And, charging $30.00 for one-day access is not a good faith attempt. BMW can do a lot better, but will not do so unless forced.

E.

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In addition to the daily or monthly costs there are the costs to obtain specialized equipment, if I understand the system correctly. Does anybody understand what these equipment needs/costs are?

PGlaves said:

In addition to the daily or monthly costs there are the costs to obtain specialized equipment, if I understand the system correctly. Does anybody understand what these equipment needs/costs are?

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I think maybe BMW’s printer crapped out.
OM

The hardware/software requirements are linked up in post #7.

The J2534 pass-through device seems to be a sort of enhanced OBD2 connector. Google shows most prices in the $1000-$3500 range. There are a few devices in the $200-300 range. Maybe the cheap ones only read codes while the more expensive ones program as well??

The computer needs to be fairly modern and fast, using Windows Professional, with 250Gb of free space on C:\ and an internet connection (at least 100Mbps for programming).

The system seems to be aimed at independent garages, who might be able to spread the cost over many customers.

I could have bought a new RT this past year, then paid for another interface device and a powerful new computer to access essential information to maintain my new bike.
Instead, I spent a couple grand on new suspension, $450 for metal throttle pulleys, and kept my '06 RT. It weighs less and has more range and storage than a new RT, more power than I can use, and handles great.

It will be the last BMW I own unless they make service information available to owners at a reasonable cost.

PGlaves said:

In addition to the daily or monthly costs there are the costs to obtain specialized equipment, if I understand the system correctly. Does anybody understand what these equipment needs/costs are?

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If I read the system requirements section correctly, the additional specialized hardware and cable beyond the Windows computer is only required if you want to run diagnostics or apply updates to the bike. That would go a fair bit beyond what we can do with the DVD based service manuals. Presumably one can peruse the service manuals that previously came with the DVD based service manuals without the additional specialized hardware. Depending on the model bike, there are third party tools such as the GS-911 and Motoscan (which work for the K1600 as an example) that can read codes and perform certain diagnostics/updates - independently of BMW's service system.

I'm not a fan of BMW yanking the DVD based service manuals and possibly moving to a subscription-based model that is probably cost prohibitive for most of us to justify. I have the DVD discs for my current bike, so I'm set for all the things I might want to do on my own. A lack of service manuals will greatly influence any future bike purchases, especially BMW's who have such a sparse dealer network who are typically booking weeks out at any given time. My closest dealer is 75 miles away. I know many who's nearest dealer is far further away, and even further when weeding out poor dealers.

right to repair

I remember being mildly shocked at the price of a factory repair manual for my, now ancient, '98 R11RT when I bought it new. Am now extremely pleased at all the money I've saved and especially the knowledge I've gained from using it.
I'm with Ikraus- I won't buy another w/o access to the repair manual

Omega Man said:

I think maybe BMW’s printer crapped out.
OM

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E.

stooie said:

Does AllData have info on motorcycles? I couldn't find any on their web site. I've used them in the past for auto info and was pleased with their product.

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Motorcycles, not that I know of, I know others who use it for automotive and have found it very comprehensive.

GTRider said:

IMHO, the system is priced to deliberately discourage use by the general public. And have a good look at the hardware and OS requirements and restrictions that are listed. As the system is structured now, it lets BMW claim they meet RtR requirements as independent shops can pony up their $$ and get the info they need to do service business. For the private owner, not so much.

Best, DeVern

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I've looked at the hardware requirements, nothing there to be really concerned about, a current PC purchased in the last couple years will work fine. The VCI they recommend is the ICOM, I found an ICOM "Next" kits listed on web for couple hundred they either hardwire or Wi-Fi communicate to the network/PC, others maybe compatible, only understandable restriction there was the "no Bluetooth" connection. The internet bandwidth for diagnostics are difficult if you live in a very rural area our speeds via DSL wont come close, but most areas where coaxial or fiber internet connects are available will have no problems. As RhBikes pointed out, if your not doing on board diagnostics or programing, you'll most likely be ok with ability to read vehicle codes and look up all service data.

In some ways I agree DeVern. If you feel the fees are discouraging, I'm sure an email to the FTC would be a step in the right direction. The cost per day access fee is steep in my mind, but on contemplation if I have the access to data to try and diagnose a problem and determine if I can fix it myself, $30 investment is much cheaper than the cost to tow a dead motorcycle 160 miles to my closest dealer, pay them $130 bucks per hour to diagnose then repair. I think it's pretty good for them to allow programming updates via the portal, the online diagnostic's I'm a little skeptical about, for speed sake. I'd really like to see it executed on the software unit, but I'm unfamiliar with the reasons or actual operation and should keep my thoughts to myself until I try it.