Right to repair

GREGFEELER said:

I saw that. Were those some of your posts on ADVRider?

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Long before you made this post (which by the way is quite inappropriate in a forum open to the public) I provided my username for the eight different BMW forums in which I participate to the entire BMWMOA Board of Directors so that they might examine my contributions therein if they were so inclined. Roger Mullins has told me that the document in which I shared the information will not be made known to the membership. My posts are factual. My opinions are mine to express. Nothing to hide. Can't be demonized. Hoping to inspire others to look into issues that may not be popular with some having a vested interest. It can tough going here on the BMWMOA forum - I see far too many posts where members get demonized, ridiculed, their posts get spammed or derailed or get dog-piled. I know that there are efforts being made to bring improvements. Hope they succeed. Hope we build a better, stronger club that is able to deal with the good and the bad of the BMW ownership experience.

GREGFEELER said:

With all respect, IMHO you went wrong right here: "Personally, i could boil down a non-political simple advocacy that shouldn’t offend anyone…" IF you can do that, you have a BIG career working for some political candidate. Seriously, there is no such thing as something that "doesn't offend anyone".

Also, in my experience with lawyers and the law, there ain't no such thing as, " have the lawyers write a preface page that absolves the mothership of all responsibility for things gone sideways". This is 'merica, boys, and we can sue anyone over anything any time.

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I said- "shouldn't offend anyone"...not wouldn't. MOA telling BMW that many of their X,000 members enjoy working on their motorcycles and would appreciate blah blah blah, SHOULDN'T offend. Alas, you are probably correct that it would though I can't imagine who or why.

Re the disclaimer- as we already have access to the tech info (albeit with difficulty and at a hefty price) it's a moot point...I'm sure they have it written already.

Now the irony, for me, $30an hour for access...so a $200 dollar manual=say, 6 1/2 hours access...that's more time than I've spent reading the FSM for my 2004 Triumph since 2006 when I got it! AND if I printed the parts I need (basic maint procedures basically) I'd probably SAVE money...it's the IDEA of limited, expensive access I hate...I want the book.

At the end of the day BMWMOA is what it is...and I enjoy it for that. No expectations=no disappointments

RadioFlyer said:

Long before you made this post (which by the way is quite inappropriate in a forum open to the public) I provided my username for the eight different BMW forums in which I participate to the entire BMWMOA Board of Directors so that they might examine my contributions therein if they were so inclined. Roger Mullins has told me that the document in which I shared the information will not be made known to the membership. My posts are factual. My opinions are mine to express. Nothing to hide. Can't be demonized. Hoping to inspire others to look into issues that may not be popular with some having a vested interest. It can tough going here on the BMWMOA forum - I see far too many posts where members get demonized, ridiculed, their posts get spammed or derailed or get dog-piled. I know that there are efforts being made to bring improvements. Hope they succeed. Hope we build a better, stronger club that is able to deal with the good and the bad of the BMW ownership experience.

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I'm not sure that I agree that it's inappropriate to ask about one's posting on another site. I did not ask for your screen name there. I've always thought that we would have a nicer Forum here if we didn't allow screen name and that's why I use my real name, but each to their own. So, if I have offended you, I offer my apology. However, anyone following this thread and the one linked to at ADVRider might have the same question about the author of these two posts with essentially identical wording:

FROM THIS FORUM:
BMW Motorrad public relations machine as a consequence of its relationship with BMW Clubs International. The BMWMOA has taken on the role of "conveying the brand message" and "disseminating the BMW ideal". The BMWMOA is to "break down the disparity in values between the BMW Group and the public". In my humble opinion the BMWMOA involvement with BMW Clubs International subordinates the interests of BMW owners to the interests of the BMW Group and we will never see the BMWMOA as a strong advocate when it comes to owners having differences with the BMW Group.

The inner workings of the BMW Clubs International are little known to the vast majority of BMW owners so this may come as a surprise to some. The documents that are available tell the tale sufficiently however.


FROM ADVRIDER:
The answer is No, definitely not. The BMWMOA through its association with BMW Clubs International has essentially agreed to be an extension of BMW's public relations machine. The BMWMOA has taken on the role of "conveying the brand message" and "disseminating the BMW ideal". The BMWMOA is to "break down the disparity in values between the BMW Group and the public". In my humble opinion the BMWMOA involvement with BMW Clubs International subordinates the interests of BMW owners to the interests of the BMW Group and we will never see the BMWMOA as a strong advocate when it comes to owners having differences with the BMW Group.

The inner workings of the BMW Clubs International are little known to the vast majority of BMW owners so this may come as a surprise to some. The documents that are available tell the tale sufficiently however.


Clearly, you and I are talking past each other. My point is and has been that even through I believe we all should have access to repair and service information, and special tools, the MOA is not the vehicle to press this issue with BMW. Consider that the MOA has about 24,000 members, and that BMW Motorrad USA sold over 16,000 bikes in the US (not counting Canada) last year (2021), and 11,000+ in 2020. Doing the math, every two years BMW sells as many or more bikes in the US as we have club members, yet our size is at best stable. BMW see these numbers and rightly figures that the MOA is on the margins of their sales demographic. That accurate perspective, along with their belief that we are "the converted" and will - as a group - continue to buy their bikes are the two reasons they only occasionally attend our national rally with their demo truck. Why spend a valuable week (and a lot of money) preaching to the choir when there are new conquest sales to be made? Specific to this thread - for these reasons, the MOA has very little clout with BMW in the US. In my opinion - having been there and done that representing the MOA to Motorrad USA- the MOA can do much better for our members by finding non-contentious ways to support the brand and develop positive relations with Motorrad USA (in appropriate places) than to pick a scab which won't change a thing other then to give them one more reason to ignore us.

Having said all this, I wish you good luck in your efforts.

While for us, the lack of a manual is a specific BMW motorcycle issue - and I don't like it - the issue of right to repair is much broader. It impacts many consumer goods, cars, trucks, farm machinery and other items. And it is not exactly a new issue.

I have a 2004 Chevy Colorado pickup truck. One day I noticed the cruise control would not engage. Several days later when I encountered some sand I discovered it would not go into 4 wheel drive. That was "fun".

I took it into an independent mechanic shop. He trouble shot the truck for a while and then concluded the issue was with a computer module, one of several, for which Chevrolet has not released any technical information. He didn't want to just start blindly swapping parts. He apologized - no charge - but said I would need to take it to the Chevy dealer, 125 miles away. I haven't yet.

It is not just a BMW problem. It is a widespread, multi-industry problem. I think we will see some regulatory relief for farmers and their machinery. I don't expect much else.

But one thing I do expect is some enterprising techno-pirate to spend the few thousand dollars to enable compiling electronic copies for sale on the gray market. And I suspect that BMW's lawyers will chase their tails in Albania, Brazil, Nigeria, China, or elsewhere trying to stop the piracy. And the world will smile and conclude they brought it upon themselves.

Is this something that can't be detailed in a "how to article" for basic services for most models? Do you need specialized expensive tools to do basic mileage services, filter changes, brake fluid, brake pad service, suspension maintenance and tire changes? This would bring great value to the membership package. There used to be a guy that wrote that type of stuff. His name was Raul, or something like that. Bought a lot of tire changing equipment because of Raul.


Wayne Koppa
Grayling, MI
#71,449

wkoppa said:

There used to be a guy that wrote that type of stuff. His name was Raul, or something like that. Bought a lot of tire changing equipment because of Raul.


Wayne Koppa
Grayling, MI
#71,449

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I think I remember that guy.

wkoppa said:

Is this something that can't be detailed in a "how to article" for basic services for most models? Do you need specialized expensive tools to do basic mileage services, filter changes, brake fluid, brake pad service, suspension maintenance and tire changes? This would bring great value to the membership package. There used to be a guy that wrote that type of stuff. His name was Raul, or something like that. Bought a lot of tire changing equipment because of Raul.

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Mark Barrett in the UK has written and sells service manuals from his website at very reasonable prices for the K1600's, R Nine T, and R1200RT/GS/GSA models that covers all the basic servicing needs. He ships very promptly to the US. I was lucky enough to get BMW service discs for my K1600 before BMW stopped selling the discs, but still find Mark's manual very useful.

I just ordered a FSM for my 2022 Road Glide Special...$136.00; it is the same manual HD sends to the dealer shop with every model that comes out. Desk lady said they use them when the computers are down!! I could not find the manual on the HD parts site but the dealer lady went to the shop to get the PN off one of the manuals. We agreed that such resources may not be available much longer. Currently, HD has online access for $30/hour...THAT was a lot easier to find than the hard copy.

I admit I was emboldened to do more of my own maintenance as a result of FTC action against Harley that may have ramifications with other manufacturers; it certainly touches on the RtR issue:The "Federal Trade Commission is taking action against motorcycle manufacturer Harley-Davidson Motor Company Group, LLC and Westinghouse outdoor generator maker MWE Investments, LLC for illegally restricting customers’ right to repair their purchased products. The FTC’s complaints charge that the companies’ warranties included terms that conveyed that the warranty is void if customers use independent dealers for parts or repairs. The FTC is ordering Harley-Davidson and Westinghouse to fix warranties by removing illegal terms and recognizing the right to repair, come clean with customers, and ensure that dealers compete fairly with independent third-parties.
“Consumers deserve choices when it comes to repairing their products, and independent dealers deserve a chance to compete,” said Samuel Levine, Director of the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection. 'These orders require Harley and Westinghouse to fix their warranties, come clean with consumers, and ensure fair competition with independent providers. Other companies that squelch consumers’ right to repair should take notice.'"

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/new...llegally-restricting-customers-right-repair-0

wkoppa said:

Is this something that can't be detailed in a "how to article" for basic services for most models? Do you need specialized expensive tools to do basic mileage services, filter changes, brake fluid, brake pad service, suspension maintenance and tire changes? This would bring great value to the membership package. There used to be a guy that wrote that type of stuff. His name was Raul, or something like that. Bought a lot of tire changing equipment because of Raul.


Wayne Koppa
Grayling, MI
#71,449

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Will the real RAUL please step forward.

E.

nickrides said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/mot...ion-lawsuits-have-been-filed-against-harley/a

News from today
Nick

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Link seems to be broken...

Right to repair? Sure, where do I sign the petition, but I won't get my hopes up. It makes life easier when one realizes that BMW doesn't give a crap(or any other vehicle manufacturer for that matter) and we're not their customer anyway. The dealers are. They do what they want to do and so do I. If I find the rules of engagement not to my liking, I'll spend my money elsewhere.

GREGFEELER said:

So, how this works is the a member volunteer (say, like you) researches something like this, gets the facts, and then writes and submits an article for publication. It's a good thing to check with the ON Editor (Bill Wiegand) first and get his thoughts. The ON staff does not write the articles - the members do. I think you are onto something and I would applaud you for following through with it.

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What a hilarious post.

In essence (according to you) the job of the editor and staff of MOA ON is ... "not my job."

Do they take orders from the President of the Club? Could he order the research and the article? Does anyone anywhere on MOA staff have any contact with BMW USA?

Perhaps there might be a modification of the MOA membership page at the Website ... something to the effect "... if you want anything from this club, volunteer to do it yourself."

Here's some more grist for the "right to repair" mill: https://jalopnik.com/harley-davidso...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-08-13

lkchris said:

What a hilarious post.

In essence (according to you) the job of the editor and staff of MOA ON is ... "not my job."

Do they take orders from the President of the Club? Could he order the research and the article? Does anyone anywhere on MOA staff have any contact with BMW USA?

Perhaps there might be a modification of the MOA membership page at the Website ... something to the effect "... if you want anything from this club, volunteer to do it yourself."

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Not even close, Kent. I researched and wrote articles of interest almost monthly for twenty years. Never on staff. Never received a dime. Just like virtually all of the other contributing authors. BMW MOA does not maintain a mechanical/technical staff.

lkchris said:

What a hilarious post.

In essence (according to you) the job of the editor and staff of MOA ON is ... "not my job."

Do they take orders from the President of the Club? Could he order the research and the article? Does anyone anywhere on MOA staff have any contact with BMW USA?

Perhaps there might be a modification of the MOA membership page at the Website ... something to the effect "... if you want anything from this club, volunteer to do it yourself."

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Kent, you have a far lower member number than me, so you must remember the time when this was the whole point of our club... finding something in our community and getting excited enough (and feeling comfortable enough) to share that thing for the benefit of others.

Nowadays it seems like the expectations are those that a customer might have...

As noted earlier by myself and others, there are several opportunities here, that are uniquely available to the MOA but also extensible internationally, and I hope our leadership pursues them.

And from what I've seen of your knowledge, Kent, you could be a real leader in this.

Ian

lkchris said:

What a hilarious post.

In essence (according to you) the job of the editor and staff of MOA ON is ... "not my job."

Do they take orders from the President of the Club? Could he order the research and the article? Does anyone anywhere on MOA staff have any contact with BMW USA?

Perhaps there might be a modification of the MOA membership page at the Website ... something to the effect "... if you want anything from this club, volunteer to do it yourself."

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The ON has *one* Editor and *one* layout and design person. There are no staff writers. One staff person does contribute reviews periodically, but that's it, besides the President's monthly column. If you look at the by lines, the articles are contributed by members. It has always been this way. The ON staff we have is the bare minimum to edit and assemble the submitted material for each month's edition.

"If you want anything from this club, volunteer to do it yourself." That is largely correct. You say that like it's a bad thing, but it actually means to a very large degree you have an opportunity to directly improve the club and benefit your fellow members. You certainly don't have to, but you will have a much more fulfilling membership experience if you do.

GREGFEELER said:

The ON has *one* Editor and *one* layout and design person. There are no staff writers. One staff person does contribute reviews periodically, but that's it, besides the President's monthly column. If you look at the by lines, the articles are contributed by members. It has always been this way. The ON staff we have is the bare minimum to edit and assemble the submitted material for each month's edition.

"If you want anything from this club, volunteer to do it yourself." That is largely correct. You say that like it's a bad thing, but it actually means to a very large degree you have an opportunity to directly improve the club and benefit your fellow members. You certainly don't have to, but you will have a much more fulfilling membership experience if you do.

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SEE Post #54!!!!!

PGlaves said:

SEE Post #54!!!!!

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Yes, I saw that, Paul, and you are one of the perfect examples of how the club, and especially the ON content, works.