Official BMW Customer Care Response Re: DVD Repair Manual Availability

I've been reading the various posts on the MOA and other Forums regarding the lack of DVD manuals from BMW dealers, and the apparent offering of an expensive service access to BMW motorcycle service directions under the BMW TIS 2.0 System. I wrote via email to what appeared to be an informational address for TIS (Technical Information Service), and also to BMW MOA Customer Service. Today, I received a response from BMW Customer Care, but as yet have heard nothing from the TIS.

Here is the inquiry which I emailed yesterday:

"Greetings - My name is John Gamel and I am the "Consumer Liaison" for the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America. We're a club of about 30,000 members and my role as a volunteer is to assist members with their BMW and other motorcycles. I have had some useful communication with Mark Pechko of BMW NA Customer Service, and have Ccd him on this email.

The reason I'm writing is because there is substantial interest on the part of BMW motorcycle owners in the apparent transition from maintenance/repair manuals in DVD form to the BMW TIS system. I was looking through the online PDF from 2019 titled TIS 2.0. As you may know, many BMW motorcycle owners enjoy maintaining, upgrading, and repairing their BMW motorcycles themselves. When the DVDs and other after-market manuals were available, this facilitated that process. For many owners who are not near a BMW Motorrad dealer, this work kept their motorcycles in excellent condition. With the advent of TIS and the disappearance of the DVD manuals from the parts system, many members are frustrated in their desire to do accurate work on their bikes.

I'm hoping you might provide me some information about the TIS system. I think it would be useful to know if BMW NA sees it as a resource for individual owners of motorcycles to use, and if so, the best ways to access the system. In reading some of the TIS 2.0 PDF I can see that the types of computers and software on which the TIS can be viewed and accessed are specified. In addition to that, would an individual owner be advised to have certain software or hardware to access information that their motorcycle is storing, and needed for repair or maintenance?

Finally, my view is that an individual owner who needed the resources of the TIS could easily afford the $30 purchase cost of a day's usage of the TIS. I presume that this would give one-time access to a substantial amount of information about the motorcycle he/she owns. Perhaps access once or twice a year would be enough. If the intent of the TIS is to have ready access, and would not be suitable for occasional review by an owner, it would be useful to know that.

Thank you for reading my email. I am lucky to have an excellent BMW dealer "Quaker City Motor Sports" close by. As a result, I find that I don't have to subject my R1200RT to my inept mechanical abilities.

Thanks again - John Gamel / BMW Motorcycle Owners of America Consumer Liaison"

I sent a copy of my email to MOA President Reece Mullins, who wrote also as a follow-on to my email.

Today, I heard from BMW Motorrad Executive Customer Care:

Thank you both for writing. BMW Motorrad has discontinued the resale of the DVD repair manuals. I have no further information at this time but we are aware of this concern.

Kind Regards,
Mark

----------------
BMW Group
Mark Pechko
Executive Customer Care, Motorrad
Customer Relations and Services


Perhaps I will receive a response from someone at TIS and if so, I'll post that response as part of this thread.

I know there is intense interest in this subject both here and on other forums. I have had some interchange with forum member lkchris regarding this. Considering that BMW NA has now ended distribution/sale of the DVDs which many members found useful, perhaps it would be possible for the company to find another path to help a large number of BMW motorcycle owners.

I look forward to your comments...

Thanks for the effort John.
Gary

Main thread on this issue here- https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?100797-Repair-DVD-availability

For what it’s worth, I was considering purchasing a Triumph until I discovered that they also do not produce manuals, and use a very similar pay to access scheme by the hour, etc.

No thanks. I’ll buy a bike that I CAN purchase the manual for so that I can at least do some minor servicing myself, or at least have torque values.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope that response isn't indicative of BMW "customer care". Oh wait- that was EXECUTIVE of customer care. Good to know where we stand. That "thud" was the sound of my loyalty to BMW hitting the floor. Hope I have to humbly pick it up if one of the other recipients actually answers your email.

This is really disheartening. I do my own maintenance on all my bikes and enjoy this work almost as much as I enjoy riding. The nearest dealership that I would trust is over 60 miles away. There is a dealership that is closer but I wouldn't let them work on my wheel barrow. If I can't access accurate technical data at a reasonable price with minimal effort, I would consider selling my BMW. It's a real shame as this is one of the best bikes I"ve ever owned. I was looking forward to retiring within the next year or so and spending my new free time touring North America and this was the bike I was going to use.

It sounds like we need to start getting a bit louder with BMW and putting less faith in a few 'key' people making noise.

Just fired off my own inquiry into the problem to BMW customer service. I'm sure I'll get an equally useful response.

I agree, BMW is shooting themselves in the foot with this one. Having said that, other than the valve train, is there really much difference between the 1250gs and the earlier 1200gs versions? I own a new 1250gs, and once it's out of warranty, I'll use my earlier DVD and Haynes manuals to do as much maintenance as I'm comfortable with. The only thing I would have to skip is a valve check. Sooner or later that information will be available. Jim Von Baden already has Shift-head info on his website for download. There will be plenty of work arounds eventually, in spite of BMW's intransigence.

Checking the requirements,

Hardware requirements, Windows 10 Pro or Enterprise 64 Bits, fine.
The correct J2534 interface and corresponding software would need some research.
.NET 4.7 okay.
Java JRE 7 and Internet Explorer 11 WTF?? Those are really old and unsupported.

I'm not to much tempted to try

patm said:

Checking the requirements,

Hardware requirements, Windows 10 Pro or Enterprise 64 Bits, fine.
The correct J2534 interface and corresponding software would need some research.
.NET 4.7 okay.
Java JRE 7 and Internet Explorer 11 WTF?? Those are really old and unsupported.

I'm not to much tempted to try

Click to expand...

Most of us don't have this computer stuff. Our G310GS bikes for which I have the maintenance CD on my computer are probably our last BMW bikes. I am 77 so don't plan on a new 160mph rocket or 800 lb dirt bike in our futures. But I would jump on the "stupid BMW you are fools" bandwagon but know it won't help. Many car and bike manufacturers are ahead of BMW in doing this. The aftermarket and YouTube will catch up but meanwhile, I will wrench Voni's 400K mile R1100RS, our K75s, and G310GSs with appropriate manuals in my possession.

"an individual owner who needed the resources of the TIS could easily afford the $30 purchase cost of a day's usage of the TIS. I presume that this would give one-time access to a substantial amount of information about the motorcycle he/she owns. "

so it would cost me $30 to check a torque setting? There's a difference between "could afford" and "would be willing to pay" and "feels it is worth the cost". It's stuff like this that makes pirated and stolen information attractive.,

rick601 said:

"an individual owner who needed the resources of the TIS could easily afford the $30 purchase cost of a day's usage of the TIS. I presume that this would give one-time access to a substantial amount of information about the motorcycle he/she owns. "

so it would cost me $30 to check a torque setting? There's a difference between "could afford" and "would be willing to pay" and "feels it is worth the cost". It's stuff like this that makes pirated and stolen information attractive.,

Click to expand...

John’s post is the professional way to negotiate a situation like this.

As far as the pirated information comment, I completely agree and I think I mentioned it earlier.

Just for my own information, I have been checking other bikes, when I can remember the other brands model numbers, and it seems that the other brands are supporting repair information.

OM

Omega Man said:

John’s post is the professional way to negotiate a situation like this.

As far as the pirated information comment, I completely agree and I think I mentioned it earlier.

Just for my own information, I have been checking other bikes, when I can remember the other brands model numbers, and it seems that the other brands are supporting repair information.

OM

Click to expand...

He absolutely went about it "professionally" though the easily pay $30/day is debatable. I consciously avoid stolen intellectual and artistic material. I even bought a multi-user netflix so both sons and a good friend can use it ...honestly and paid for. When an owner of information is as dismissive as BMW has been SO FAR, one is tempted by "other avenues"- though I am loath to go there.

I think that among us though we may call a spade a spade, and the curt response that he received that ignored the heart of his request was BS. Were I "negotiating" I'd be more diplomatic...Yes mr customer service executive, I understand that DVDs are no longer available...given that, what other avenues do you envision for the competent owner who wants to....blah blah blah. To be honest, the most reliable repair info I've received has been from experienced wrenchers on forums or you-tube...not always the first one who answers but the one who has consistently proven to be knowledgable and experienced in my particular issue.

Thanks, John AKA ExGMan

Thanks for putting the question to BMW in such a professional, non-emotional manner.

Hopefully Mr. Pechko's response that they "are aware of this concern" portends a more positive and active response than what skeptical me is sadly expecting.

At the very least, one would hope that future owner's manuals will continue to contain torque values and specifics for low-level maintenance such as wheel removal/install and oil/filter changes.

The Biden administration recently (July ‘21) signed an executive order directing the Federal Trade Commission to develop a national “right to repair” policy that includes access to service info and manuals.

The fight for right to repair had originally been concentrated against Apple and John Deere, but has been expanded to general automotive.

Since 2001, several states have introduced similar legislation, but only a few have implemented anything, with Massachusetts being the most aggressive.

Hopefully, this will come to pass soon. Yes, some regulation of corporations CAN be beneficial, but they are fighting back against it.

My hearty thanks to everyone who has replied to my initial post in this thread. As Omega Man knows as does Mark Pechko, I've been wearing the hat of Ombudsman for the BMW CCA since 2008. Since I added the BMW MOA Consumer Liaison hat a couple of years ago, I've learned what an absolutely different constituency MOA people are than CCA members.

Despite the fact that I rarely have done any maintenance/repair work in the past twelve years on my BMW RTs, I think I understand the need that exists in the BMW motorcycle community for some elements which BMW NA can or could supply. These include expert knowledge, parts availability, and technical literature. My intent is to focus on those elements, and hope readers of the thread who would tell me of elements I've missed.

In an ideal corporate world, we'd all buy our BMW motorcycles from our local dealer which was 20 miles away at most, and that dealer would do all the maintenance. Well, maybe it's that way in many other locations in this world, but here in the US & Canada with some BMW Motorrad dealers hundreds of miles away, the corporation has to be persuaded to adapt to the unique needs of North America. I checked the world-wide sales of BMW motorcycles today and the number for 2021 is going to be close to 200,000 deliveries. That's a lot of motorcycles, but a very substantial number of sales were not in the US and Canada.

Finally, I think it's going to be a struggle to find a path toward finding resolution. Not everyone will be happy. Nonetheless, the solutions to these issues are out there. My intent is to work with BMW Motorrad and all BMW MOA members to find them.

Enough out of me...for now...

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Please send me your thoughts and ideas about this effort: john.gamel@bmwmoa.org

Great job Consumer Laison

I believe this got started originally in the forums with crossover on the Facebook page, regarding the BMW NA decision to no longer provide maintenance manuals for purchase. If memory serves it was Traveling John that originally brought it to our attention.

Monitoring the issue, and subsequent feedback, I asked Wes Fleming and John Gamel to run this down from their two unique perspectives, ON tech writer/content producer and our Consumer Laison. I personally can’t be more pleased with their efforts thus far and the information it has revealed for our members.

I personally would like to see BMW NA make the right choice, which I believe is the availability of technical data for service and maintenance of BMW bikes. Safety is paramount when riding bikes, having properly maintained bikes is a key component to safety, and further more, and most importantly, having accurate technical data is the key to properly maintaining bikes.

As an aviator I understand (from a safety perspective not a proprietary one) the need for standardized, correct, and professional maintenance and servicing, but I can’t count how many times I had to do my own servicing, maintenance, refueling and re-armament, as a pilot with a leatherman, to make mission.

I see the evolution of all bikes, not just BMW’s, and their progressive march towards the more complex and sophisticated, as somewhat prohibitive for the unqualified mechanic. I think the 2022 RT’s and R18’s have adaptive cruise control, I can only imagine what it takes to repair that system, or what would happen to the owner and passenger if they got it wrong.

Personally, I think the answer that no one is looking at lies somewhere in the middle. I would personally love to see a very robust and detailed service manual available for purchase for owner operators. I personally blend my servicing and maintenance on my bike between work in the garage and work done at the service department. I know my mechanical limits and stay inside them.

Maybe BMW could identify which maintenance tasks they are unwilling to hand over to technically unqualified mechanics like the radar I mentioned or other libel and safety related tasks and produce “abridged” maintenance manuals, in order to retain their wrench turning customer base.

I hope our club and the BMW riding community at large, can get the mothership to listen to its customers needs and desires.

ExGMan said:

My hearty thanks to everyone who has replied to my initial post in this thread. As Omega Man knows as does Mark Pechko, I've been wearing the hat of Ombudsman for the BMW CCA since 2008. Since I added the BMW MOA Consumer Liaison hat a couple of years ago, I've learned what an absolutely different constituency MOA people are than CCA members.

Despite the fact that I rarely have done any maintenance/repair work in the past twelve years on my BMW RTs, I think I understand the need that exists in the BMW motorcycle community for some elements which BMW NA can or could supply. These include expert knowledge, parts availability, and technical literature. My intent is to focus on those elements, and hope readers of the thread who would tell me of elements I've missed.

In an ideal corporate world, we'd all buy our BMW motorcycles from our local dealer which was 20 miles away at most, and that dealer would do all the maintenance. Well, maybe it's that way in many other locations in this world, but here in the US & Canada with some BMW Motorrad dealers hundreds of miles away, the corporation has to be persuaded to adapt to the unique needs of North America. I checked the world-wide sales of BMW motorcycles today and the number for 2021 is going to be close to 200,000 deliveries. That's a lot of motorcycles, but a very substantial number of sales were not in the US and Canada.

Finally, I think it's going to be a struggle to find a path toward finding resolution. Not everyone will be happy. Nonetheless, the solutions to these issues are out there. My intent is to work with BMW Motorrad and all BMW MOA members to find them.

Enough out of me...for now...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please send me your thoughts and ideas about this effort: john.gamel@bmwmoa.org

Click to expand...

Your communication to them was clear and professional...I feel you represented the concerns of BMWMOA (and BMW owners in general) admirably. Hopefully, your communication finds its way to those who may understand the nature of the issue. Thanks for your efforts. As I hope I made clear, my blurt was a locker room only response to what was (hopefully) only the first stop of the email's journey.

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/what-is-right-to-repair/

ExGMan said:

Finally, my view is that an individual owner who needed the resources of the TIS could easily afford the $30 purchase cost of a day's usage of the TIS. I presume that this would give one-time access to a substantial amount of information about the motorcycle he/she owns. Perhaps access once or twice a year would be enough. If the intent of the TIS is to have ready access, and would not be suitable for occasional review by an owner, it would be useful to know that.

Click to expand...

I don't know how you can presume to know what we can afford. Maybe you can afford it, but that is not a reasonable statement when you are writing as a BMWMOA representative.

So far, there is no basis to assume that the information accessed can be saved for future use. Even if particular topics can be printed or saved, and we are willing to dedicate days to gathering the information, the results will no longer be linked to related procedures and specs.

The repair DVD price was ~$120, for unlimited access, for life. Many people felt that even this was a high price.

How can you consider $30 per day a reasonable charge for temporary access to a portion of the same information?

In the 11 years I've had my RT I have had no major repairs and perform all maintenance myself. I probably access my service manual at least a dozen days a year. If I had been forced to use the subscription model for the 11+ years I've owned my RT (so far), my wallet would be lighter by nearly $4000.

lkraus said:

I don't know how you can presume to know what we can afford. Maybe you can afford it, but that is not a reasonable statement when you are writing as a BMWMOA representative.

So far, there is no basis to assume that the information accessed can be saved for future use. Even if particular topics can be printed or saved, and we are willing to dedicate days to gathering the information, the results will no longer be linked to related procedures and specs.

The repair DVD price was ~$120, for unlimited access, for life. Many people felt that even this was a high price.
.

Click to expand...

When representing 30,000 people sometimes you have to make assumptions, preferably safe assumptions. It is in fact impossible to survey every member and only bring forth those issues that one hundred percent of the membership agrees upon. Also, without actually seeing the product or service one has to make reasonable assumptions about the product yet to be released based on the product launch information.

If in fact one could download and print technical data for a service to be performed, say oil change, and the specs didn’t change over time, (my oil change specs have not changed on any vehicle I have owned) at 200,000 miles with service performed every 6000 miles at $30 for the initial data, the cost of access at the 200,000 mile mark would be $1.10… for oil change alone. If more data was gleaned and printed the ameliorated cost of maintenance information over time would literally be pennies.

As John intoned, myself included, this isn’t our preferred access to maintenance manuals, but stating that $30 for one days access isn’t necessarily cost prohibitive for the majority of our members is a safe assumption.

If I pulled my calculator out again and estimated the cost to members of the hours of free labor provided by volunteers like John and others, we could bank roll that savings and buy a new bike every year. (Exaggerating for effect)