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Looks like I have lived long enough for my all-electric house-

Omega Man

Omega Man

Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat
Staff member
-is the wave of the future?

Some really pertinent facts have been omitted however, with the deduction for a full HVAC system could reflect the reported 5-10% extra cost for construction.


There has been a wave in some of the cities to limit natural gas connections for new construction. It seems that some areas have adopted codes to at least pre-wire for electric vehicle charging. I have a feeling that there will be a renewed interest in atomic energy power generation.
Maybe at some point vehicles can be powered by rubbing a ballon through your hair? :laugh

Hopefully this can avoid a political "drift".

Viva Ben Franklin and Nikola Tesla.

OM
 
Omega Man said:
I have a feeling that there will be a renewed interest in atomic energy power generation.
Click to expand...

I sure hope so because we wouldn't have anywhere near the problem with carbon emissions if there had not been a concerted effort over the past 50 years to kill the nuclear power industry. Yesterday I attended a very good seminar regarding the transition from coal-fired electricity generation to nuclear. There are some amazingly great things going on in the mountain West that are economically-driven, with minimal government dictate. I've spent a good deal of my career serving utility clients and I've seen some impressive stuff... it's good to see it finally coming to life. A good outfit to follow for balanced analysis is Nuclear Matters.

Also... a company I am eyeing...SA2 Modular. They have some stylish designs that are manufactured complete with solar energy generation and storage capabilities, and the quality of build is superior... e.g. not mobile homes.

Screen%20Shot%202021-11-21%20at%2011.30.47%20AM-X2.png
 
Omega Man said:
-is the wave of the future?

Some really pertinent facts have been omitted however, with the deduction for a full HVAC system could reflect the reported 5-10% extra cost for construction.


There has been a wave in some of the cities to limit natural gas connections for new construction.
Click to expand...

I question that it's only 5-10% additional for construction, hell just going from 4-6" to 14" walls along with the additional trim around windows, doors etc. alone might cost over 5%.

I need help understanding the wisdom of phasing away from inexpensive natural gas for heating? If we're going to have to shift to electric for transportation (not just cars) we're going to need a LOT more of it, so why mandate we must supplement heat our homes only with electric too? Our largest source of electric generation comes from natural gas fired power plants. They convert gas to electricity at about 50% efficiency (40-55%, coal 30-35%) while the gas furnaces in our homes operate around 95% efficient.
 
milo said:
I need help understanding the wisdom of phasing away from inexpensive natural gas for heating? If we're going to have to shift to electric for transportation (not just cars) we're going to need a LOT more of it, so why mandate we must supplement heat our homes only with electric too? Our largest source of electric generation comes from natural gas fired power plants. They convert gas to electricity at about 50% efficiency (40-55%, coal 30-35%) while the gas furnaces in our homes operate around 95% efficient.
Click to expand...

The big issue is green house gases. I don’t want to have a discussion on green house gases etc. But, the thought is is that it’s easier to regulate the much smaller number of electric generation plants than every house, business, building, etc.
 
88bmwjeff said:
The big issue is green house gases. I don’t want to have a discussion on green house gases etc. But, the thought is is that it’s easier to regulate the much smaller number of electric generation plants than every house, business, building, etc.
Click to expand...

Yes. Of course not. But if gas fired power plants operate at say 60% efficiency converting gas to electric, why not just heat with gas? And use less of it?
 
I realized early that all the HVAC mechanical systems were going to rely on electrical power to operate. An all electric home has a few benefits such as no central boiler to worry about failing in freezing temperatures.
I feel bad for those adding solar panels to their roof without knowing the real costs. Should a roof problem occur, removing the panels for the repair could quite easily eat up any accumulated savings to accomplish the repair.
The newer natural gas boilers are quite efficient and I am keen on the Lochinvar line. As good as they are, they are not like an old Smith boiler. An old Smith could usually be brought on line with an extension cord and a paper clip. The Lochinvar and newer generation of boilers are like a newer car- full of sensors and internal checks that have to be "proven" to have them operate.

Here is an interesting on one of the "new plans" :eek

https://www.wsj.com/articles/battle-brews-over-banning-natural-gas-to-homes-11622334674

OM
 
People who are in the green-tech world say electric is the future. It's weird to get our heads around but yes you're right, electric heat is stupid up here in Vermont...very wasteful but if you take your 2-3 acres (normal here in Vermont) and you place a solar array out there and a solar water heater and you have battery packs in the basement, you can then run your entire life on electricity and be off-grid. charge your electric car, heat and cool your home and run everything you need.

"green" in this part of the world was fully propane. That's how I am. I have 24 solar panels on my roof that covers all of my electric needs however my clothes dryer, hot water heater, stove and furnace are all propane and I use about 300 gallons a year because my house is incredibly well insulated to the highest degree so for example if it's 20 degrees outside, my heat set at 65 runs about once every 2-3 hours for 5 minutes. It's a small house so cooking up a pot of soup will increase the living space heat to about 75F and it'll hold that all night.

So
1. Insulation
2. Efficient appliances
3. Solar
4. Propane
5. EV car

OR add batteries and 10 additional panels and remove propane entirely.
 
adamchandler said:
People who are in the green-tech world say electric is the future. It's weird to get our heads around but yes you're right, electric heat is stupid up here in Vermont...very wasteful but if you take your 2-3 acres (normal here in Vermont) and you place a solar array out there and a solar water heater and you have battery packs in the basement, you can then run your entire life on electricity and be off-grid. charge your electric car, heat and cool your home and run everything you need.

"green" in this part of the world was fully propane. That's how I am. I have 24 solar panels on my roof that covers all of my electric needs however my clothes dryer, hot water heater, stove and furnace are all propane and I use about 300 gallons a year because my house is incredibly well insulated to the highest degree so for example if it's 20 degrees outside, my heat set at 65 runs about once every 2-3 hours for 5 minutes. It's a small house so cooking up a pot of soup will increase the living space heat to about 75F and it'll hold that all night.

So
1. Insulation
2. Efficient appliances
3. Solar
4. Propane
5. EV car

OR add batteries and 10 additional panels and remove propane entirely.
Click to expand...

I seem to recall some cautionary tales about unhealthy air quality in modern well sealed homes.
 
akbeemer said:
I seem to recall some cautionary tales about unhealthy air quality in modern well sealed homes.
Click to expand...

Humidity control and air quality control are critical, but have been largely solved through high-efficiency air exchangers that transfer heat from warm outgoing air to cold incoming air, adjusting humidity in the process.

Geothermal heat exchangers aren’t getting the attention yet that they deserve, either. Front-end cost is increased, but more than paid back during the lifetime of the system. My former employer has one fairly new school building that is completely heated and cooled using geothermal energy. That structure employs multiple “wells” housing the geothermal transfer loops, and it was interesting watching the heating contractor drill the holes (>150ft deep) then set and grout the piping.

Best,
DeVern
 
akbeemer said:
I seem to recall some cautionary tales about unhealthy air quality in modern well sealed homes.
Click to expand...

No issues here. 6 years and 2 years in quarantine and no problems. Our winters are October to May so it's sealed up tight that long per year. It wasn't a DIY job..I had proper contractors doing it but there's 2 feet of blow in for the attic, spray foam on every nook & cranny and the rest is standard fiberglass. No draft, no cold spots it's tight. Only thing I do is run a dehumidifier in the basement July - September.
 
New York is the first state in the country to ban natural gas and other fossil fuels in most new buildings – a major win for climate advocates, but a move that could spark pushback from fossil fuel interests.

230503092558-new-york-gas-stoves-law-climate.jpg


https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/03/us/new-york-natural-gas-ban-climate/index.html#

I can see a number of problems with this. Maybe a new apartment building or housing development will become an enclave for those that believe in this can all get together?

OM
 
The whole country going electric? Who will pay for the infrastructure improvements?

We have manhole explosions pretty regular in Boston. This one in an electric vault (concrete room for electrical connections/access) was particularly amazing-


This blast was powerful enough to "tiddleywink" a cast iron vault cover ( around 250 LBS) to and through the roof of a triple decker in the city. Electricity in some circumstances can be hotter than the sun so when the energy is released, it can be beyond imagination.

The electrical distribution cables can only handle just so many amps and that is calculated at the time of (new) installation. When you figure all the water, rich in corrosive salt from winter road treatments, that fill the vaults it really start to wear on the cables and connections.

Going all electric will take some time but will probably require most to have stand alone power generation systems.

OM
 
The jury's still out with regards to natural gas bans. Berkeley was one of the first cities to ban natural gas in new construction and also included major renovations to the best of my knowledge. The law was overturned by a Federal Appeals court. https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2023-04-17/court-throws-out-berkeley-californias-ban-on-natural-gas#:~:text=A%20federal%20appeals%20court%20on%20Monday%2C%20April%2C%2017%2C,the%20ordinance.%20%28AP%20Photo%2FThomas%20Kienzle%2C%20File%29%20Thomas%20Kienzle

California has banned the sale of new natural gas furnaces and water heaters by 2030 (this ban does not include appliances--e.g. stoves). I think this will also make its way through the court system. New York's recent ban on natural gas in new buildings will most likely find itself defending that ban in federal court. In the end, I think the Supreme Court will end up deciding if states and local governments can ban natural gas in new buildings and appliances.
 
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