Lengthy Moto E-Mag on BMW Motorrad Philosophy

z3guy · Mar 12, 2023

Been reading his articles for a few years and really enjoy it. He tells it like it is and if I remember actually worked for BMWNA for a number of years in marketing. I remember him writing about one marketing gem in regards to the GS "Its even uglier when it passes you on the highway" As far as press invites, he doesn't care as then he doesn't have to give positive spins to be invited back.

In regards to the R18 I had a dealer tell me a couple years ago he was on a a conference call with other dealers and BMWNA. They were being asked "why aren't you selling these R18's"? He said one dealer replied you are about 12 years to late bringing these to the dance. You can look at that several different ways.

The_Veg · Mar 12, 2023

slash5er said:
Have you noticed the R18's electronically selectable "shakey idle mode"? How can you take anything seriously that is that fake?

https://www.viberider.com/

No word on whether a version for electric bikes will be offerred.

motormike · Mar 15, 2023

Regarding the R18, I have no idea what the sales figures are and don't really care. I always thought the look was a bit "cartoonish" and then when I demoed it, I was horrified at how bad the ride and handling was. That thing would put blood in your urine on a bumpy road. I rode Harley touring bikes for decades, but gave up on them when their weight went north of 900 lbs and prices hit the $30,000 dollar mark (Jesus!) A couple of my Harley riding friends also demoed the R18 and actually laughed at how bad it was. One said, "BMW had done a great job of copying Harley Davidson, if that Harley is a 1964 Panhead!" I personally made the switch to a K1600b, and that too has been a bitter disappointment, what with that model's high speed handling issues. I don't know how important the US market is to BMW Motorrad, but their efforts to "steal" market share from Harley Davidson have all been disasters IMHO.

ponch1 · Mar 15, 2023

motormike said:
Regarding the R18, I have no idea what the sales figures are and don't really care. I always thought the look was a bit "cartoonish" and then when I demoed it, I was horrified at how bad the ride and handling was. That thing would put blood in your urine on a bumpy road. I rode Harley touring bikes for decades, but gave up on them when their weight went north of 900 lbs and prices hit the $30,000 dollar mark (Jesus!) A couple of my Harley riding friends also demoed the R18 and actually laughed at how bad it was. One said, "BMW had done a great job of copying Harley Davidson, if that Harley is a 1964 Panhead!" I personally made the switch to a K1600b, and that too has been a bitter disappointment, what with that model's high speed handling issues. I don't know how important the US market is to BMW Motorrad, but their efforts to "steal" market share from Harley Davidson have all been disasters IMHO.

The touring models have more rear suspension travel and really a different suspension. They have auto leveling IIRC. Maybe that makes a difference.

FWIW, some BMWs have hit the 30k mark and obviously one model hit 900+. The big stop for buying a HD are the dealers, at least where I live. It's like they binge watch Andy Elliot and Steve Richards. If you get in and out in less that 2 hours it's a miracle. I know folks that got the wear them down treatment for 4 hours. It's basically a fleecing operation. The BMW dealers here are a mixed bag. If I was going to get another BMW I'd go to Tucson.

Visian · Mar 15, 2023

The_Veg said:
https://www.viberider.com/

No word on whether a version for electric bikes will be offerred.

This should be an R18 accessory!

lkchris · Mar 15, 2023

mikegalbicka said:
I was sorry to read that in the last issue. I agreed with most of his thoughts except for this one:

“BTW, I hate the boxer engine with a capital H. That’s why I was the key global influencer for K bikes for, ohhhh, 15 years. Airplane engines have no place on motorcycles.”

It will be interesting to see if the future of the industry plays out along his projections or not.

A couple things about this indicates his detachment from reality.

BMW did try to quit boxer engines with the 1984 K-bike but the market told them that wasn't what it wanted. Of course the fact that the K was so poorly executed contributed.

Nobody bought the R80G/S but when the K turned so many off, the R100GS quickly became BMW's best seller and the rest is history, as "adventure" biking is now BMW's major segment.

I'm not much of an "adventure" bike fan and prefer highway/twisties fun as clearly does he with his beloved K1300S. At least he didn't dismiss driveshafts entirely. It's a minority position.

Guy reminds me a lot of "Dr. Curve," i.e. another legend in his own mind. It happens in motorcycling. Could be called just a style. Diversity.

Still, it was a fun monthly distraction and I was a marketing major and marketing is everything, so I'm sorry a little to see it go.

cajunrider · Mar 16, 2023

lkchris said:
At least he didn't dismiss driveshafts entirely. It's a minority position.

I love shaft drive bikes... so I guess I'm in the minority??? :dunno

In fact, I'm SO far into the minority, I ride an R1200C... and like it so much that I bought an R1200CL for touring.

Here's what bothers me about that article...

Two key points are for the side profile to project an American style cruiser and it must be foot-forward.

So... the only way to sell cruisers is to make Harley Clones????? Doesn't almost every other cruiser on the market get slapped with the "nothing more than a Harley Clone" moniker???

If it's not a Harley Clone, it won't sell because it's not a REAL cruiser... If it IS a Harley Clone, it won't sell because it's nothing more than a copy-cat. :scratch

I guess we should all give up and never dare to design something different...
What a boring way to look at the world.

Visian · Mar 16, 2023

lkchris said:
Guy reminds me a lot of "Dr. Curve," i.e. another legend in his own mind. It happens in motorcycling. Could be called just a style. Diversity.

Hey now, don't you go talkin' about my good buddy like that!

Dr. Curve and the Macon Ace. BR showed up a bit later and I couldn't get a shot of them all together. (This is MOA Legend!)

kbasa · Mar 16, 2023

BMW's philosophy is to sell motorcycles. That's it. I met with them when I was president and the S1000RR was getting introduced. BMW was clear about their intentions - they wanted the brand to remain viable, so they were fishing for younger, more sporting riders that would enter the marque there and, as they matured, start buying bikes like a GS or R or RT. The HD and cruiser market is large, so they've got an offering for it that's far more serious than the R12C of 25 years ago.

BMW is trying to build the kind of product line Honda used to have. Start you on something small to get your license and early skills, then, as your abilities grow and your taste in motorcycles develops, they'd sell you a Transalp, a 650 Hawk, an ST1100, a Wing or one of their cruisers. BMW's doing about the same, to my thinking and now with success, they have the funding to iterate on models to see what sells.

Making money is their philosophy. It's why we have the X3, X5 and the emerging i series of BMW EVs.

I think it's pretty evident that HD's inability to see anything other than big cruisers has given them a brand that's only focused on that market. They're trying, with their recent 300cc introduction, their abortive attempt with the 500/750 models and the PanAmerica, which doesn't seem to be moving well, judging by what I see on the roads here in motorcycle intensive NorCal.

motormike · Mar 17, 2023

kbasa said:
I think it's pretty evident that HD's inability to see anything other than big cruisers has given them a brand that's only focused on that market. They're trying, with their recent 300cc introduction, their abortive attempt with the 500/750 models and the PanAmerica, which doesn't seem to be moving well, judging by what I see on the roads here in motorcycle intensive NorCal.

Actually, everything I read said Harley's PanAmerica was their bestselling model and the bestselling ADV bike the first year out. Lot's of early adopters. The model has had more that its share of teething issues though, and I think the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. I was in a big Harley dealership last week (aren't they all big now?) and they had three PA's on the floor. I asked the salesman how they were doing, and he rolled his eyes, saying they sold a bunch last year, but word-of-mouth issues have killed sales.

kbasa · Mar 17, 2023

If you're in business, ya have to sell what people are buying if you want to stay in business.

It's a hard truth.

brownie0486 · Mar 17, 2023

motormike said:
Actually, everything I read said Harley's PanAmerica was their bestselling model and the bestselling ADV bike the first year out. Lot's of early adopters. The model has had more that its share of teething issues though, and I think the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. I was in a big Harley dealership last week (aren't they all big now?) and they had three PA's on the floor. I asked the salesman how they were doing, and he rolled his eyes, saying they sold a bunch last year, but word-of-mouth issues have killed sales.

Walked into a HD local dealer here about a month ago. They had NO PA's in stock, and the salesperson stated they are sold before they get them at that point in time.

Used HD's were close to an average of 25K. New models as high as 38K [ trike ]. Can't fault them on the trike prices however, used GW trikes are running 20-25K and the one I was looking at was just shy of 40K

There's never going to be a Harley in the fold again. Last one was 88 or so [ the 3rd and last one ]

explorer · Mar 18, 2023

brownie0486 said:
... There's never going to be a Harley in the fold again. Last one was 88 or so [ the 3rd and last one ]

My wife still has her 2008 FLHTCU (w/ABS) and I have my 2020 RT. Luckily, I also have the Repair DVD. However, on the bookshelf I have the two volume maintenance manual set for the FLHTCU - one book for mechanical and a separate book with electrical schematics and functional descriptions.

I love the RT (I also had a FLHTCU which I traded in on the RT), but I'm not going to buy a bike which requires me to go to the dealer for every maintenance action. My BMW dealer (MaxBMW) is a good one, and I am lucky they are only 45 minutes away. But, in contrast the independent HD mechanic who wrenches on my wife's bike is only 10 minutes away and I bet there are another dozen independent HD mechanics between here and Max.

Just saying...

Ride safe -
Larry

bmwk100 · Mar 18, 2023

ponch1 said:
The touring models have more rear suspension travel and really a different suspension. They have auto leveling IIRC. Maybe that makes a difference.

FWIW, some BMWs have hit the 30k mark and obviously one model hit 900+. The big stop for buying a HD are the dealers, at least where I live. It's like they binge watch Andy Elliot and Steve Richards. If you get in and out in less that 2 hours it's a miracle. I know folks that got the wear them down treatment for 4 hours. It's basically a fleecing operation. The BMW dealers here are a mixed bag. If I was going to get another BMW I'd go to Tucson.

While my local HD acts as you describe, I went to my next closest HD dealer and was in and out in three hours. This included trading in another HD and them transferring my fork wings, grips, floorboards, suspension and seat to my new Street Glide Special.

jammess · Mar 24, 2023

Dune Buggie

Interesting thread this. The other day I visited the local Yamaha dealer looking for some plastic pop rivets for my FJR which they didn't have no surprise. Anyway, around here the big draw is the dunes national recreation area managed by the US Forest Service or, more appropriately, forest circus where people get their kicks riding around on 4 wheelers on the sand dunes which run down the central Oregon coast. Anyway, on the way out of the dealers show room there sat a 4 wheeler with a price tag on it that gave the sale price north of $50,000!! I looked at that and just shook my head and I thought BMW bikes were ridiculously high priced for what they are. Oh, and I never lost anything in those dunes but I guess different strokes and all that. :dunno

. I know this place is a real zoo in summer what with the idiot factor and gets worse every year. I'd move but have no clue where that and too old to load a U-Haul.

brownie0486 · Mar 24, 2023

explorer said:
My wife still has her 2008 FLHTCU (w/ABS) and I have my 2020 RT. Luckily, I also have the Repair DVD. However, on the bookshelf I have the two volume maintenance manual set for the FLHTCU - one book for mechanical and a separate book with electrical schematics and functional descriptions.

I love the RT (I also had a FLHTCU which I traded in on the RT), but I'm not going to buy a bike which requires me to go to the dealer for every maintenance action. My BMW dealer (MaxBMW) is a good one, and I am lucky they are only 45 minutes away. But, in contrast the independent HD mechanic who wrenches on my wife's bike is only 10 minutes away and I bet there are another dozen independent HD mechanics between here and Max.

Just saying...

Ride safe -
Larry

That's my lot in life no matter what vehicle I own, I don't wrench. Never have wrenched so I've known forever the dealer or private mechanic gets the work when something needs to be done to any of them. I rose to the top of my profession, never had time to wrench but had plenty of do re me to pay someone who was at the top of their profession to do the work while I was doing the same.

I had a private wrencher for the cages here for years, he's retired, now I use a mechanics shop that's local. I have a personal wrencher for the beemers who is part owner in an Aprilia motor shop. They brought him on as he brought 4 motor depts to their mix. All he wrenches on is bmw's for the most part, and RT's for the depts specifically. He's 23 miles from the house.

I'll never take a beemer to the 3 Phx bmw dealers, but I did buy one from one of them once knowing it was never going back for service. Their service reputations are terrible.

jammess · Mar 24, 2023

brownie0486 said:
I'll never take a beemer to the 3 Phx bmw dealers, but I did buy one from one of them once knowing it was never going back for service. Their service reputations are terrible.[/QUOTE

I've heard good things about the Tucson dealer Iron Horse BMW. Yeah, good BMW dealers are few and I'm pretty much out of luck in that department which is a good reason to stay clear of a newer BMW with all its high tech gadgetry, imo of course.

brownie0486 · Mar 24, 2023

jammess said:
brownie0486 said:

I'll never take a beemer to the 3 Phx bmw dealers, but I did buy one from one of them once knowing it was never going back for service. Their service reputations are terrible.[/QUOTE

I've heard good things about the Tucson dealer Iron Horse BMW. Yeah, good BMW dealers are few and I'm pretty much out of luck in that department which is a good reason to stay clear of a newer BMW with all its high tech gadgetry, imo of course.

Click to expand...

Iron Horse in Tucson is a great dealer. Their mechanics are known for their expertise getting and keeping motors up to snuff. They're just about 100 miles from my door. My private mechanic is known throughout the valley as one who gets a job done correctly. He gives me a 10% discount for being an MOA member and they're not even a bmw shop.

The several bmw dealers in the Phx/Scottsdale area have a reputation for not fixing things properly, or not at all. When I bought the 2012 GS triple black, they told me it had been serviced and was ready for pickup the next day. Knowing their reputation I bent down and checked the sight glass, black oil. I asked for the manager, showed him the printout of service performed just 8 miles ago [ checking the odo right then with him ] and then asked him to check the sight glass. "What about it" was his response. Mine was to tell him he either threw the bike on a lift and changed the oil that was supposed to have been changed, or give me my money back. Also that I'd be taking it to my private mechanic, and if he found they'd not done other work they said was performed [ like it needing brake shoes, shock leaking, controls not working in some way, etc ] that dealer would be getting a letter from an atty. to recompensate me for what I had to have done at my mechanics shop.

The horror stories those places is never ending, and they are as high priced as they can get for everything, where Iron Horse isn't after every dime on a sale. Good deals to be found there over others up here in the middle of the state with the exception of Moto Ghost, beemer shop [ not a dealer ] would be the only place I'd take mine in the valley if or when I lost my mechanic.

explorer · Mar 25, 2023

brownie0486 said:
jammess said:

... My private mechanic is known throughout the valley as one who gets a job done correctly. He gives me a 10% discount for being an MOA member and they're not even a bmw shop. ...

Click to expand...

I think that is a great position to be in, the same as the indie shop that wrenches my wife's HD. The issue is - will an independent mechanic be willing to perform, let's say, a valve check, and take some liability for that effort, when he doesn't know what the specs are for the valves?

I hope that BMW is moving to an online system that will allow independent shops, mechanics and owners access to the technical documentation needed to service their bikes. However, I haven't really seen any significant movement this direction in the last 2 years since I purchased the RT. You don't even see the parts fiche for the post-2020 RT's on MaxBMW's web so you can't even get a part number for something that you know you need or want (even trivial stuff like an air filter).

We'll probably get an inkling when a new engine hits the market. Maybe the R1300GS?

Larry

RadioFlyer · Mar 25, 2023

explorer said:
brownie0486 said:

I think that is a great position to be in, the same as the indie shop that wrenches my wife's HD. The issue is - will an independent mechanic be willing to perform, let's say, a valve check, and take some liability for that effort, when he doesn't know what the specs are for the valves?

I hope that BMW is moving to an online system that will allow independent shops, mechanics and owners access to the technical documentation needed to service their bikes. However, I haven't really seen any significant movement this direction in the last 2 years since I purchased the RT. You don't even see the parts fiche for the post-2020 RT's on MaxBMW's web so you can't even get a part number for something that you know you need or want (even trivial stuff like an air filter).

We'll probably get an inkling when a new engine hits the market. Maybe the R1300GS?

Larry

Click to expand...

For most of its history BMW Motorrad made service information available. This enabled owners and independent techs to undertake most service and repair procedures themselves. For many doing one's own maintenance is a valued part of the motorcycle ownership experience. For others, who live far from the nearest BMW dealership or who embark on a great adventure to remote places, doing it yourself is the only option. Similarly independent techs having service information give greater choice to those who don't want to DIY. All that changed in 2021 when BMW discontinued the provision of service information on ALL bikes old and new. Only bootleg copies of the factory service manual are available now. Haynes/Clymer/Chilton haven't produced a BMW motorcycle manual since 2018. If you own one of the most recent models you are totally out of luck.

The MOA should act as a collective voice for its members and overtly and actively send a public message to BMW and support the Right to Repair legislation.

Lengthy Moto E-Mag on BMW Motorrad Philosophy

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D'OH!

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look out!!!

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look out!!!

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