ATGATT: Which brands most likely comply and why?

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Some great comments above. I especially latched onto the comments regarding marketing. One is left to wonder, kind of a which came first- the chicken or the egg, did corporate H-D create an image…or exploit one?

DSXMachina said:

Some great comments above. I especially latched onto the comments regarding marketing. One is left to wonder, kind of a which came first- the chicken or the egg, did corporate H-D create an image…or exploit one?

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So this is where “heritage” comes in as an aspect of brand. Your question is a hard one to answer (as are most chicken and egg questions).

First, the most important things to know about brand: the logo is not the brand, the brand is what you *feel* as you consume the product. (Although I never quite could explain this to the MOA BoD… who were more interested in selling what we make instead of making what sells).

imo, when it comes to the HD brand, years upon years of product refinement led to a sense of tradition that most riders bought into as part of the HD lifestyle. This sense cuts across the bike, the gear, and the H.O.G. Club and its “experiences” that HD corporate brought to the market. Many have referred to this as “nostalgia.” HD marketing built this into an appeal that attracted millions of new riders, many of whom thought it was cool & ironic to look like a badass while paying the hotel bill with a platinum Amex card. Interestingly, HD is really having an increasingly hard time attracting new customers because, in many ways, younger riders are not so interested in nostalgia.

In contrast, BMW is going though this in an almost reverse way. Through the 1970s and into the 80s, BMW’s appeal was also built upon years of refinement, e.g. “The Legendary Motorcycles of Germany,” but the company made a strategic decision to focus almost entirely on advanced technologies: the brick 4 with fuel injection and liquid cooling, for instance. Now, BMW changes tack almost every year with new suspensions, all kinds of advanced engine management systems, shift cams… whatever. Many young/new riders bought into the new technologies… and now the main problem appears to be making it affordable enough for young/new riders. So now comes the the R9T and the R18 with honest-to-God pinstripes and pushrods. (And ads full of tattooed young people who in reality are all riding KTMs!) Go figger!

Did all this marketing BS answer your question? Probably not!

Dumbing it down, the chicken (you, the customer and your desires = demand) came first and in the interest of creating a lot more chickens, the marques started making different kinds of eggs!

Marketing is all about exploitation.

Visian said:

(snip)

Marketing is all about exploitation.

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Well, there’s exploiting, and then there’s exploitation. Some of both in this case perhaps?

DSXMachina said:

Some great comments above. I especially latched onto the comments regarding marketing. One is left to wonder, kind of a which came first- the chicken or the egg, did corporate H-D create an image…or exploit one?

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I believe the bad boy image came from all the biker gangs that were prevalent in the '50's after WWII. There were a lot of service men that came back home and there way of dealing with the impact of the war was to join a biker gang. Harley was the motorcycle of choice boings it is American made. Harley corporate just built on the image.

So what came first? The bad boy biker gangs, and Harley exploited it.

You can read more about it here, https://archives.evergreen.edu/webpages/curricular/2007-2008/fifties/index-5171.php.html

Lee Marvin.

I must be the unicorn in this thread.

I commute to work on my HD Road King wearing Aerostich Darien jacket, AD-1 pants and Daytona boots. My only concession is wearing a 3/4 helmet instead of the full face helmet I wear when commuting on my R1250R.

I don't understand the leather vest with patches.

bmwk100 said:

I must be the unicorn in this thread.

I commute to work on my HD Road King wearing Aerostich Darien jacket, AD-1 pants and Daytona boots. My only concession is wearing a 3/4 helmet instead of the full face helmet I wear when commuting on my R1250R.

I don't understand the leather vest with patches.

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I was the same way on my ElectraGlide's. I wore Aerostich as well!

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My $ 0.02

Great discussion…….my take…

The ATGATT riders (most MOA) have better “Risk Awareness” attitudes, where non-ATGATT riders respond to their buds, peer pressure, etc. They “cannot” break from their social group.

I never discuss what riders “should” wear to their faces…..BUT I’ll tell the barebones rider…”I can’t believe you ride without gloves”. They usually respond with a goofy smile, or ask why……but “we” know why

The MOA/BMW crowd are not the only people that subscribe to ATGATT, FJR riders, for one example, are every bit as committed as are most long distance and sport touring bike riders.

oscs said:

I was the same way on my ElectraGlide's. I wore Aerostich as well!

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Once my wife and I rented a Goldwing (worst mistake I ever made… wife now loves them) and someone came up to us and commented on our Aerostich gear, saying “I know you two actually ride a BMW, right?”

If one studies the emergence of "bikers" in the immediate aftermath of WW2 in the United States they will find a convergence of two key factors: an economy slowly transitioning from a full bore war economy but not yet booming; and many returning veterans with what was sometimes called "shell shock", which we now call PTSD. Civilian jobs were emerging but not immediately bountiful and factory work did not seem appealing to many troubled veterans. And thus emerged the bikers; the affinity groups becoming biker gangs; and the badass image. A combination of surplus military and available farming and ranching garb brought us the leather bomber jacket and rancher's chaps. In reality, for the time this was protective gear. It was better than dungarees and a cotton shirt by a bunch. And so it began!

PGlaves said:

If one studies the emergence of "bikers" in the immediate aftermath of WW2 in the United States they will find a convergence of two key factors: an economy slowly transitioning from a full bore war economy but not yet booming; and many returning veterans with what was sometimes called "shell shock", which we now call PTSD. Civilian jobs were emerging but not immediately bountiful and factory work did not seem appealing to many troubled veterans. And thus emerged the bikers; the affinity groups becoming biker gangs; and the badass image. A combination of surplus military and available farming and ranching garb brought us the leather bomber jacket and rancher's chaps. In reality, for the time this was protective gear. It was better than dungarees and a cotton shirt by a bunch. And so it began!

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And….. a biker club was a chance to regain the camaraderie that kept them alive
om

bmwk100 said:

I must be the unicorn in this thread.

I commute to work on my HD Road King wearing Aerostich Darien jacket, AD-1 pants and Daytona boots. My only concession is wearing a 3/4 helmet instead of the full face helmet I wear when commuting on my R1250R.

I don't understand the leather vest with patches.

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I wore my leather vest with patches today- on my softail heritage. I wore it over my Helite turtle and I wore THAT over my Rukka level2 protection Polymid and denim jacket. The leather vest has some patches of my bikes (Triumph, BMW, Harley) a 12 step group (those who know will strike up a conversation) and a military patch (referring to my fathers WWII service in a tank destroyer battalion). A little mix of things that mean something to me...but always proven protective gear underneath!

PGlaves said:

If one studies the emergence of "bikers" in the immediate aftermath of WW2 in the United States they will find a convergence of two key factors: an economy slowly transitioning from a full bore war economy but not yet booming; and many returning veterans with what was sometimes called "shell shock", which we now call PTSD. Civilian jobs were emerging but not immediately bountiful and factory work did not seem appealing to many troubled veterans. And thus emerged the bikers; the affinity groups becoming biker gangs; and the badass image. A combination of surplus military and available farming and ranching garb brought us the leather bomber jacket and rancher's chaps. In reality, for the time this was protective gear. It was better than dungarees and a cotton shirt by a bunch. And so it began!

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Very interesting angle on the origin of 'safety gear'. You're right on the leather jacket. To this day leather is the material of choice for bike racers...and Harley riders.

Anyone who takes riding somewhat serious is mostly ATTGATT even down here in hot and humid S.FL. While true that most BMW riders go full bore on gear, I still see plenty of them without even as much as a helmet. I also see more Harley riders with suits and helmets, so not all of them are the same helmet-less loud pipes people either.
IMHO stupid is as stupid does and it is irrelevant as to the brand of bike ridden.... YMMV

RIDERR1150GSADV said:

Anyone who takes riding somewhat serious is mostly ATTGATT even down here in hot and humid S.FL. While true that most BMW riders go full bore on gear, I still see plenty of them without even as much as a helmet. I also see more Harley riders with suits and helmets, so not all of them are the same helmet-less loud pipes people either.
IMHO stupid is a stupid does and it is irrelevant as to the brand of bike ridden.... YMMV

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It seems that this thread has identified BMW and H-D riders as opposite ends of the spectrum. While there are always exceptions, and that certainly may lead to other conclusions in your area of the US, I can strongly conclude that in my area (NH where helmets are not mandated) more than 90% of BMW riders wear helmets and more than 90% of H-D riders don't. And of those H-D riders who do, the majority do NOT wear DOT approved helmets.

Good ol Marlon planted his TROPHY on his Triumph.....was it the beginnings of a "Trophy TT"???............

I gassed in Riverton WY yesterday morning - two HD riders provided a new definition of ATGATT - they were wearing Full Face Helmets, leather jackets, some brand of riding Jeans, Boots, and Gloves - Both also packing large Semi-Automatic pistols on their belts.

All depends upon one's definition of ATGATT!

bigjohnsd said:

I gassed in Riverton WY yesterday morning - two HD riders provided a new definition of ATGATT - they were wearing Full Face Helmets, leather jackets, some brand of riding Jeans, Boots, and Gloves - Both also packing large Semi-Automatic pistols on their belts.

All depends upon one's definition of ATGATT!

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I'm armed everywhere I go too. Concealed, though

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RIDERR1150GSADV said:

Anyone who takes riding somewhat serious is mostly ATTGATT even down here in hot and humid S.FL. While true that most BMW riders go full bore on gear, I still see plenty of them without even as much as a helmet. I also see more Harley riders with suits and helmets, so not all of them are the same helmet-less loud pipes people either.
IMHO stupid is a stupid does and it is irrelevant as to the brand of bike ridden.... YMMV

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Well said. BTW, Harley riders in Europe are 98% ATTGATT just like most other riders. Helmets are 100% because they do not have a choice in Europe. But ATTGATT is still a choice over there.