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Thread: 1997 R850R Solving Vibration and Cat Code Plug Change

  1. #1
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    1997 R850R Solving Vibration and Cat Code Plug Change

    I have a few questions for anybody that has experimented with the color-coded fusebox cat plugs, and about chasing down engine vibrations after doing all the typical things one does to reduce them.

    My 1997 R850R, US model, with catalytic converter, currently has its stock "yellow" cat code plug. It has no intake or exhaust modifications but has a 3.5 bar fuel pressure regulator and a pair of Tills injectors. The charcoal canister had already been removed when I purchased this bike, but the owner that did so didn't remove all the plumbing that went with it. I removed the remaining vacuum hoses and the evap purge valve just recently and capped off the vacuum nipples on both throttle bodies.

    My fueling feels a bit lean, especially when it starts up; the bike will die almost every time after first starting and running for a few seconds but will catch on the second or third attempt and stay running from there. If the fast-idle lever is off then it's noticeably worse to start with the engine cold than if the lever is on (this is in summer Tennessee weather so quite warm and humid outside). It also seems to stumble very slightly every so often when idling, like it's misfiring or not burning as much fuel once every few seconds. This also occurs on throttle but it's less noticeable. The engine also seems to get warm very fast once it's running.

    There is some vibration coming from the engine as well, at all RPM's. It's slight, but noticeable, at idle. The vibration gets higher in frequency as the engine revs faster, as you'd expect, but it gets much worse when engine load is increased, such as opening up the throttle, climbing a hill, etc. It's much better than my last bike, a 2002 Kawasaki Concours 1000, but not as smooth as I would expect a boxer twin to be. I feel the vibration less in my hands due to having a new set of soft rubber grips but I definitely feel it in my feet and seat. At speeds lower than 45mph it's tolerable and less bad than my old Suzuki GS500E parallel twin, but at interstate speeds it's unpleasantly buzzy. When I pull in the clutch while rolling it completely disappears so I know it's not driveshaft or tire related.

    This is after installation of the new upgrade injectors, new air filter, new Autolite 3923 spark plugs, a replacement ignition coil, a new Mahle fuel filter, new internal and external fuel lines with a Nushings stainless u-pipe, a valve adjustment, replacement of the throttle body boots and O-rings, a thorough cleaning of both throttle bodies, and a careful throttle body sync with a Carbtune. This bike has a stock fuel pump and has just over 34,700 miles on it. Compression is excellent and perfectly balanced at 170PSI in both cylinders. Both of my spark plug wires test with the exact same resistance. When removed, the spark plugs don't look chalky white. They look like a light brown. At my first oil change just after purchasing the bike I did overfill the oil level but removed and dumped out the oil filter a few times, and now the level is very slightly under the midpoint in the sight glass.
    I used a snake cam to look at the pistons and I saw a good amount of carbon buildup on them, and plan to run a few tanks of fuel system cleaner to help clear that out. I have only run 90 octane or higher, ethanol-free gas in this machine so far.

    I should say that when I first got this bike running, the vibration was absolutely hellacious. The whole machine would visibly throb at idle to the point that the mirrors were unusable and interstate speeds would make my hands and feet go numb in less than a half hour. The work I've done has downgraded the buzzing from intolerable to just annoying.

    I did find a much more detailed guide on ibmwr.org on how to do a throttle body sync and am going to attempt that process tomorrow, again with the Carbtune. The Clymer manual procedure is not nearly as thorough and I likely messed up somewhere between my inexperience and its somewhat incomplete instructions.

    What else could I feasibly do to try to de-buzz this bike?


    And on a whim, here's another question: has anyone else with a 1100-series Oilhead attempted the "gray" cat code plug configuration (30-86-87) or the "brown" (30-86-87-87a, stock on Swiss model R1100GS) to run their bike on US 87 octane gas? It's something I'm considering experimenting with in the future and would love to know if anybody's tried it.

    Edit: Took out some stuff about swapping to a pink cat code plug from my stock yellow one, as I did more reading. Changing it to pink would make it run even leaner and I'm running closed-loop so it wouldn't permanently change anything fuel-related anyways, just make it run worse for a while. Also added the bit about the more detailed throttle body sync.
    Last edited by senseamidmadness; 08-11-2021 at 08:58 AM.
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

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    An update: I did a proper, careful, by-the-book throttle synchronization procedure yesterday, including setting all my cable free play specs correctly as well as accounting for the right throttle cable locknut. Last time I had carelessly forgotten to double-check the balance after locking the cable adjusters down; the right locknut alone threw off the synchronization by 2cmHg!

    I'm using a Carbtune and temporarily installed my tachometer and I got the two cylinders as close as I possibly could. At idle they're nearly perfect, and at 2500RPM they're nearly perfect, though when the engine is accelerating the two sides dance up and down a bit relative to each other.

    This did have an effect on the vibration but I was hoping it would do more. Now, every speed below 57-ishMPH I can stay in a high enough gear to keep the vibes from being bothersome. It's exactly as smooth as I'd expect it to be at those speeds. As soon as I go higher than that, the buzzing gets annoying again. I don't have a tach permanently installed on this machine yet so I'm not sure exactly what RPM that coincides with. I know I have a lower final drive gear than most Oilheads so I'm revving higher than an 1100 at the same speed.

    Anyone got any ideas? There are a few other things I haven't touched like motor and exhaust mounts, would those have much of an effect?
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

  3. #3
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    Did a test ride on the interstate today after pulling the yellow cat code plug entirely.

    Unfortunately, it made zero difference, or so little difference that I didn't notice it. Bike is still fairly buzzy and the vibration definitely feels like it's side-to-side, and gets annoying above 55mph.

    Makes me wonder if maybe I have a bad or unplugged O2 sensor, my throttle bodies fell out of sync somehow, or if something is seriously wrong with this engine. I saw one old thread here that mentioned a completely worn out crankshaft bearing was the culprit D:

    I tried reading the Motronic fault codes before doing this, and I couldn't get any voltage at all from diagnostic pin 1...which is a bad sign. I know the wiring in this bike has been messed with, so sometime soon I'm going to tear apart the rear bodywork and find what the dumbest of the previous owners did.

    Anyone got any advice?
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

  4. #4
    Registered User m_stock10506's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseamidmadness View Post
    . "………….

    I tried reading the Motronic fault codes before doing this, and I couldn't get any voltage at all from diagnostic pin 1...which is a bad sign. I know the wiring in this bike has been messed with, so sometime soon I'm going to tear apart the rear bodywork and find what the dumbest of the previous owners did.

    Anyone got any advice?
    Make sure that the side stand is up, kill switch in the run position. I made that mistake on my 1100RT, up on the center stand but side stand down. Turn on the ignition but couldn’t get any diagnostics. Bike has to be ON for diagnostic signals.
    Michael Stock, Trinity, NC
    R1100RT, R100, R60/6

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    Well that would explain that. D'oh. I was trying to do it on the sidestand. Thanks for the heads up, I'll try again today on the center stand!
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

  6. #6
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    I was able to successfully read the codes: 1122 and 1133, which are completely normal according to all the info I can find (thanks to Anton Largiader and his helpful website). No further codes from there. After that I pulled Fuse 5 for maybe 20 minutes, pulled the cat code plug, put the fuse back in, and went for another interstate ride. No noticeable change in vibration. Still quite annoyingly buzzy above 57ish MPH indicated and my tank was full of 90 octane pure gasoline.

    So it's most likely not a combustion or throttle body imbalance.

    Having never ridden an Oilhead or an R850R prior to owning this bike, I really don't know what a "normal" amount of buzz is. People say the 850 is smoother than the 1100's, but this particular bike has enough lateral or rotational vibration that it's comparable to the old parallel twin Suzuki GS500E I had for a few years. The speeds where the buzz happens are fairly similar too. On the couple of longer trips I took on that bike, I could only stand to ride it for 90ish minutes at a time and took breaks roughly every 75 miles. I was hoping that going to a boxer twin would give me a bit more range between stops because that made my trips take a whole lot longer.
    One positive is that this bike definitely has a more comfortable seat that transmits a lot less vibration. My hands and feet are still buzzing after the 30-minute ride I just did, though. The worst of it is in my hands. I tried varying my speed but above 57, all going faster does is increase the frequency.

    As an example, at idle, this bike still shakes visibly side-to-side, left to right. I don't know how normal that is. It improved a lot after I did a valve adjustment and throttle body sync (before, the mirrors were useless at idle) but it's still there.

    At this point I'm wondering if I have some kind of mechanical imbalance in the engine. I read that sometimes the big crank bearings will go egg-shaped and one user on Pelican Parts had a similar vibration problem in an R1100RT due to this. That would be terrifically unlucky on a bike with mileage this low, wouldn't it? Or some kind of factory defect? Or a previous owner not doing oil changes correctly?

    Even if it is a worn out crank bearing, there's not much I can do about it right now with my budget.

    What I'm planning on doing in the short-term is just buying a set of the heaviest bar end weights I can find (if anybody has any used HVMP ones let me know!) and riding. Maybe I'll get used to it the more I ride it.

    Edit: one other thing. Is it possible even with a near-perfect throttle body synchronization using my Carbtune, that I could get some vibration improvement if I attempted Roger's Zero=250mV TPS tuning procedure? Has anyone else tried it as a solution to vibration issues?
    Last edited by senseamidmadness; 08-23-2021 at 10:41 AM.
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

  7. #7
    #13338 PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseamidmadness View Post
    I was able to successfully read the codes: 1122 and 1133, which are completely normal according to all the info I can find (thanks to Anton Largiader and his helpful website). No further codes from there. After that I pulled Fuse 5 for maybe 20 minutes, pulled the cat code plug, put the fuse back in, and went for another interstate ride. No noticeable change in vibration. Still quite annoyingly buzzy above 57ish MPH indicated and my tank was full of 90 octane pure gasoline.

    So it's most likely not a combustion or throttle body imbalance.

    Having never ridden an Oilhead or an R850R prior to owning this bike, I really don't know what a "normal" amount of buzz is. People say the 850 is smoother than the 1100's, but this particular bike has enough lateral or rotational vibration that it's comparable to the old parallel twin Suzuki GS500E I had for a few years. The speeds where the buzz happens are fairly similar too. On the couple of longer trips I took on that bike, I could only stand to ride it for 90ish minutes at a time and took breaks roughly every 75 miles. I was hoping that going to a boxer twin would give me a bit more range between stops because that made my trips take a whole lot longer.
    One positive is that this bike definitely has a more comfortable seat that transmits a lot less vibration. My hands and feet are still buzzing after the 30-minute ride I just did, though. The worst of it is in my hands. I tried varying my speed but above 57, all going faster does is increase the frequency.

    As an example, at idle, this bike still shakes visibly side-to-side, left to right. I don't know how normal that is. It improved a lot after I did a valve adjustment and throttle body sync (before, the mirrors were useless at idle) but it's still there.

    At this point I'm wondering if I have some kind of mechanical imbalance in the engine. I read that sometimes the big crank bearings will go egg-shaped and one user on Pelican Parts had a similar vibration problem in an R1100RT due to this. That would be terrifically unlucky on a bike with mileage this low, wouldn't it? Or some kind of factory defect? Or a previous owner not doing oil changes correctly?

    Even if it is a worn out crank bearing, there's not much I can do about it right now with my budget.

    What I'm planning on doing in the short-term is just buying a set of the heaviest bar end weights I can find (if anybody has any used HVMP ones let me know!) and riding. Maybe I'll get used to it the more I ride it.

    Edit: one other thing. Is it possible even with a near-perfect throttle body synchronization using my Carbtune, that I could get some vibration improvement if I attempted Roger's Zero=250mV TPS tuning procedure? Has anyone else tried it as a solution to vibration issues?
    If you have a combustion imbalance causing vibration it would be caused by something that affects one cylinder and not the other. Resetting the TPS, changing cat code plugs, etc affect both cylinders, not just one. Spark plugs, spark plug wires, coils, fuel injectors, etc can affect one cylinder and not the other and that is what you should be chasing.

    If it is possible that somebody removed the clutch - maybe for a leaking main seal or some other reason - then that is a reasonable likelihood that the clutch parts might have been reinstalled incorrectly. This is a lot more likely than oval shaped main bearings.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  8. #8
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    Unfortunately I've got almost-new Autolite spark plugs, flow-matched Tills injectors, very clean and synchronized throttle bodies, and I just recently tested my spark plug wires and replaced the ignition coil. It's possible there's some kind of intermittent failure of my spark plug wires that only occurs when they're installed and have current running through them. They're in pretty good shape externally, not cracking anywhere, but are definitely a little stiff in a few places. Their resistance tested almost identical when out of the bike.

    Mildly related: when I first started working on this bike, the nasty old Bosch spark plugs I pulled out of it were visibly different. The left plug looked a lot more carbon-fouled than the right. It certainly seemed like there was some kind of combustion imbalance going on before, or it's possible a previous owner just didn't know how to use the center stand. The compression in both cylinders is identical so it can't be from oil blow-by.

    Though you've given me an idea: my dad has one of those gun-type infrared thermometers. What I can do is aim it at both sets of header pipes soon after starting to see if there's a significant temperature difference. If I've missed something and the cylinders aren't firing evenly, then that should show it, right?

    You're right about the clutch being another possible source. From the state of the bike when I got it, some evidence seems to indicate the tail section got lifted, but some doesn't. If the transmission was removed it was done by a competent mechanic or a careful dealership because everything transmission-related is where it should be. I have noticed that there seems to be some kind of black dust or grime on the sides of the transmission that isn't anywhere else, and I've wondered if that's from clutch wear possibly combined with a rear main seal leak.

    Is there any test I can do to try to isolate a clutch imbalance problem as opposed to something else?
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

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    So I've got a new set of battery cables and spark plug wires on order, but today I discovered a couple of very odd things.

    Every guide I've seen to cat code plug swaps says something like "pull fuse 5 for 5 minutes" or some short interval of time. I had been using this method for swapping them. However, it seems like my particular bike doesn't want to actually do a full Motronic reset in that short amount of time. Pulling the fuse OR the Motronic relay for anywhere from 1 minute to 30 minutes usually seems to do nothing; a full reset seems to require a complete disconnection of the battery for, at minimum, one hour. Does this thing have a secret battery I don't know about?

    What's odd is that the 5-minute fuse reset worked at one point today and that's the first time it has ever worked. Here's some more explanation as to what's been going on with this machine.

    Yesterday I cleaned up some issues one of the previous owners had created in the tail section and this morning I was about to ride home. The roads were very wet. The bike made it to the end of the street and spontaneously died on me! I had an inline spark tester with me and it showed no spark. Pulling the Motronic relay for 5 minutes and reinstalling it did nothing.
    Pushed it back to my dad's garage and tested the fault codes, got the normal 1122 and 1133 and nothing else. Bummer. Unplugged the battery, waited half a day, and went back and it started right up. Tried to ride home again on very wet roads a couple hours ago and the bike was running rougher than usual. With a pink cat code plug installed for testing it felt like it was surging, throttle response was poor, etc.
    It died after about 15 miles. I removed the cat code plug entirely and unplugged fuse 5 for about 5 minutes, which for some reason worked and actually reset the Motronic, and the bike started up immediately. It ran smoother than ever. Idle was higher, throttle response was excellent, vibration was greatly reduced at all speeds, and it was great...for about 10 minutes.
    It then started bucking and surging like crazy, like it was running out of fuel and/or spark, running terribly. After a minute or two of putting up with this I stopped giving it throttle and it died again. Again, turned over fine but no spark.
    I had to leave it parked and catch a ride the couple miles home. I left the battery cables unhooked, put the yellow cat code plug back in, and I expect that when I go to get it in the morning it'll start up just fine again.

    I suspect my home-repaired Hall Sensor is failing or shorting out, as this seems to only be happening on wet roads. From what I've read this is a common issue with original sensors and my repair wasn't as good as I'd have wanted it to be; I used what I had on hand, which was silicone-jacketed wire a little too thick for the application, and some high-temperature foil tape to insulate it. (Not foil duct tape. I bought actual high-temp stuff from an auto parts store.)
    I have a fender extender installed and was hoping that would help stave off any possible spray intrusion, but I guess it can only do so much.

    On the positive side, I now know that with a genuinely richer mixture running open-loop the bike gets a LOT smoother. My previous attempts at code plug swaps simply weren't changing the fuel mapping at all for some reason and this recent one did. So I likely have a purchase of an AF-XIED in my future if I can't otherwise figure out my vibration problem.

    Does my guess at another Hall sensor failure sound right?
    Last edited by senseamidmadness; 08-30-2021 at 08:27 AM.
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

  10. #10
    #13338 PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseamidmadness View Post

    Does my guess at another Hall sensor failure sound right?
    Yes
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    Or maybe that foil tape is causing inductive pickup between the wires inside, kornfuzing the computer.

    There's no "secret battery", but most automotive computers have capacitors inside - especially on the main DC input, to help filter out potential spikes or noise in the line. These take time to discharge.

    I'm not familiar with the temperature aspects of silicone wire, but Teflon-insulated wire might be a better choice (with the caveat that it shouldn't be bent too tightly or bent over a metal edge: Teflon is a liquid and will flow away from bends, leaving a tiny bare spot).

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    Quote Originally Posted by senseamidmadness View Post
    Does my guess at another Hall sensor failure sound right?
    Do yourself a big favour and send your HES to GSaddict for a better-than-factory repair. The very least it will do is take a variable out of your constantly varying equation. But its also likely it will cure your problems.

    If I can be allowed an opinion...quit screwing with TPS adjustment, cat code plugs, oval main bearings, spark plugs, etcetera, etcetera and take care of the obvious stuff first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC1100S View Post
    Do yourself a big favour and send your HES to GSaddict for a better-than-factory repair. The very least it will do is take a variable out of your constantly varying equation. But its also likely it will cure your problems.

    If I can be allowed an opinion...quit screwing with TPS adjustment, cat code plugs, oval main bearings, spark plugs, etcetera, etcetera and take care of the obvious stuff first.
    I think I'm going to just buy a new unit, as I may have already messed it up in some way that might make it difficult for him to repair. I went at it myself with a soldering iron but didn't have the proper materials.

    On the subject of obvious stuff, I thought I had done that. I did all the normal tune-up procedures prior to this experimentation. New air filter, new spark plugs, attempted Hall sensor repair, throttle bodies cleaned and synchronized, new upgraded fuel injectors, replacement throttle body insulators and O-rings, valve adjustment done, oil changed and at the proper level, new fuel filter and lines, replacement ignition coil...if there's something else obvious, then I must be completely missing it. After I repaired it, Hall sensor hadn't given me any issues until two days ago.


    Paul, you're totally right, Teflon wire would've been better -- but silicone-jacketed wire is just what I happened to have on hand at the time and my budget was limited. If I do another Hall repair myself, I'm going to get the proper wire and high-temp heat shrink.
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by senseamidmadness View Post
    I think I'm going to just buy a new unit, as I may have already messed it up in some way that might make it difficult for him to repair. I went at it myself with a soldering iron but didn't have the proper materials.

    On the subject of obvious stuff, I thought I had done that. I did all the normal tune-up procedures prior to this experimentation. New air filter, new spark plugs, attempted Hall sensor repair, throttle bodies cleaned and synchronized, new upgraded fuel injectors, replacement throttle body insulators and O-rings, valve adjustment done, oil changed and at the proper level, new fuel filter and lines, replacement ignition coil...if there's something else obvious, then I must be completely missing it. After I repaired it, Hall sensor hadn't given me any issues until two days ago.


    Paul, you're totally right, Teflon wire would've been better -- but silicone-jacketed wire is just what I happened to have on hand at the time and my budget was limited. If I do another Hall repair myself, I'm going to get the proper wire and high-temp heat shrink.


    We await a positive outcome.

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    Minor update: I did, in fact, get the bike home the next day under its own power. The roads were dry in the morning. It took another short reset with the Hall sensor unplugged to get it to start, but it did start up and run just fine, so thankfully the Hall sensor pickups aren't damaged or permanently shorted. It's definitely just the water intrusion that was causing problems. With the stock yellow cat code plug back in it ran exactly as usual: a bit vibrational.

    Good thing it's sitting at home under its cover because a couple hours after I got it home a torrential downpour hit and it's been raining ever since. I won't be going anywhere on it until the rain stops.

    Since I know the pickups aren't damaged, I've decided to go at it again with my soldering kit before spending a bunch more money on the new part. The difference this time is I ordered a proper 4-conductor shielded Teflon-insulated harness like Pauls1150 suggested, and will be using my dad's marine-grade heat shrink tubing kit to protect the connections and seal out water.

    I asked this question in another thread, but I'll repeat it here. I know now that an enrichment device will make my bike run a whole lot smoother, and there's an Innovate Motorsports LC-2 here on the MOA Marketplace listed for the grand sum of $60. If I buy that instead of spending about $200 on an AF-XIED, will I regret not buying the AF-XIED? What functions and benefits, if any, would I be giving up?
    I know the installation will be a bit more difficult but I'm pretty decent at motorcycle wiring, so I'm more asking about what the two of them are like to live with and configure after they're installed.

    Edit: that listing was up way past the time the LC-2 got sold! So my question is moot. I'm gonna end up buying an AF-XIED.
    Last edited by senseamidmadness; 09-01-2021 at 05:52 AM.
    Owner of the saddest 1997 R850R you ever did see.

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