The future of ICE auto's is emerging sorry off BMW topic

[Omega Man]

I'm Ok with that as long as the rates reflect true costs. That would see large trucks which are 65 times more damaging to roadways than motorcycles paying their fair share. Of course that won't happen but it is what would be dictated by equity matching costs to revenues.

I was mainly referring to electric vehicles are not paying gas taxes (for the most part). I wonder how sales would be without a tax credit?
Things are going a bit crazy as using natural gas for heating and cooking is now being discouraged.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/battle-...es-11622334674

Song from the ‘70s seems to be relevant-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iwLvmPUEo4

The energy needs to come from somewhere……..cost effectively.



OM

[Visian]

Song from the ‘70s seems to be relevant-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iwLvmPUEo4

the more things change, the more **** happens…. you know the old saw.

[Visian]

Think about how often we really do a 500 mile day. A Mustang Mach E goes 270 in the real world. Even when I was commuting, that was a week of driving.

As we’ve traveled around the west, trailering my 70mpg Honda CB500X to fabulous riding areas, I could not have taken one of my rides on an electric motorcycle. As much as I want one (really Jonesing bad for a Zero DSR) the only thing you can do with an e-bike is commute. And I am RETIRED!

Today I rode from Custer to Spearfish to Newcastle and back to Custer. I would have had to overnight in Spearfish on an e-bike.

At my home in WNC my typical ride would take at least 1 battery recharge or I’d have to head back home at the 50-mile out point.

That is the basic reason for the D- you speak of.

We will get there, it will take time and fresh technology ideas.

For now I am going to stick with a fuel-efficient ICE bike at 25% of the cost of a DSR… with dealers nationwide!

[motormike]

the only thing you can do with an e-bike is commute. And I am RETIRED!

Me too. Electrics are perfect for commuting back and forth to work, or any set route where you know your exact distance, like a delivery or mail truck. For the rest of us, second vehicle at best. I live in rural Tennessee, as I drive my gas-guzzling V8 Pickup around my small town, can't help but notice...not a single charging station to be found. Kinda like it that way, keeps out the riff-raf.

[guenner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC95WACQhCY

There is quite some help in a Tesla to manage your trip finding charging stations. It's a start!

In ca. 1910 some guy tried to cross the country form east to west by car. He had to find pharmacies which had something close to gasoline.

/Guenther

[drneo66]

In ca. 1910 some guy tried to cross the country form east to west by car. He had to find pharmacies which had something close to gasoline.

/Guenther

George A Wyman crossed the US in 1903 via a motorcycle - it's an amazing story (he also bought gas from pharmacies)

It's also fun to retrace his route!

[taran1900]

Yep, a perspective from the status quo

Some places are moving ahead, dealing with pollution, climate change. Here in Vt our power grid is 100% renewable, yep some wood powered but mostly hydro, by a lot and solar and wind. So getting away from ICE here really does make a difference....

I do agree, living is a rural area battery cars in winter is a real challenge. Time and capitalism will improve the number of charging stations and range of the cars. ( who needs 600hp and 3 seconds to 60??) Less powerful cars need less battery, etc etc

ps The text from the Bloomberg article was dropped.....Calif and Mass are following the EU ICE auto time line. Some other states will follow them in time. The US as a whole will never do it ...to much money in the fossil fuel industry lobby.

California is run by people who have no clue about cause and effect and Mass is tiny. Much easier for Mass to put enough charging stations to ensure you can get anywhere in an electric car. Texas or say, Wyoming? Not so much.

The California power grid cannot even run under high load in summer without the old power lines setting the state on fire, and then there's the renewable power situation there. California like Vt, relies heavily on hydro power. California is running out of water as is the Hoover Dam. Hydro is roughly 11% of the base load generation there and 11% is not an insignificant number. They don't think things through. You can't have any significant number of all vehicles be battery powered with have enough energy to charge them. Cart before the horse comes to mind.

Unless we see an huge advancement in battery technology reducing their weight, volatility (fires) and impact on the environment, battery powered electric vehicles are just a stop gap solution. A recent Tesla S Plaid fire took something like 200 thousand gallons of water to extinguish. Does the west have enough water to put out battery powered car fires? Fuel cell powered vehicles are a much more viable option but you still have to use significant amounts of electricity to produce the hydrogen fuel. The base load of the power grid would still need significant upgrading but you would not have to have massive infrastructure upgrades as the hydrogen production can be located in specific areas. It doesn't have to everywhere like fueling stations. And variable renewable energy would be perfect for generating the energy needed to extract the hydrogen. There are some possible alternates to using pure hydrogen fuel like ammonia which is mostly hydrogen and it would require far less energy to produce.

Oh, and capitalism will not build an upgraded power grid or new generation. Why? The profit margin, if there is any, is tiny. Only when it becomes more profitable will it be done. Unless we the tax payers pay for it. With the current state of corruption in the US it's likely that most of the tax dollars for infrastructure upgrades will line the pockets of the powers that be making them richer and us poorer. And not make any significant infrastructure progress.

Fiats like declaring all vehicles sold in year X sound great at first, but really are kind of meaningless because they don't address the horse that powers the cart. ICE will be here longer than you think. Or we are destined to be imprisoned in the place we live because we will not have the means to travel in or on our own vehicles.

[Visian]

Fiats like declaring all vehicles sold in year X sound great at first, but really are kind of meaningless because they don't address the horse that powers the cart. ICE will be here longer than you think. Or we are destined to be imprisoned in the place we live because we will not have the means to travel in or on our own vehicles.

A better strategy would be so seek alternative means of producing fossil fuels until the renewable/alternative fuel/power technologies catch up. I am talking about things like capturing carbon from coal/oil/gas power plants and feeding it to algae reactors to produce biofuels.

Can you imagine how much smaller these problems would be if we had not basically killed the nuclear power industry?

[guenner]

drneo66: George A Wyman crossed the US in 1903 via a motorcycle - it's an amazing story (he also bought gas from pharmacies)

I think that's the guy. I was off by a few years. I bet by 1910 every little town in Texas had a gas station.

/Guenther

[nickrides]

A little off topic but..
I just finished "BLOWOUT" by Rachel Maddow.
Its about the global history of the gas and oil industry.
Its THE most lucrative business in the world and we taxpayers in the USof A subsidize it, still today.
Great read if your into history and current events.
Non Partisan.
Nick
1990 K75RT

[Visian]

Pertinent to the discussion.

“China controls most of the market for the raw-material refining needed for the batteries and dominates component manufacturing; industry analysts warn the monopolization presents not only an economic risk, but also a national security one.

The cost of finding new sources for raw materials and loosening China’s grip on the supply chains is large. That much is clear in Thacker Pass, a windswept pocket of northern Nevada where the Fort McDermitt Paiute and Shoshone Tribe has for centuries hunted sage grouse, collected plants for medicine, and gathered for ceremonies. It is also the largest reserve of lithium in the United States.”

“In far-flung patches of the ocean floor, at Native American ancestral sites, and on some of the most pristine federal lands, extraction and mining companies are branding themselves stewards of sustainability, warning the planet will suffer if digging and scraping are delayed. All the prospecting is giving pause to some of the environmental groups championing climate action, as they assess whether the sacrifice needed to curb warming is being shared fairly.”

[PoorUB]

New York is in that northern tier of states and I have never seen an engine block heater cord. We did stay at a Red Roof in Malone, NY, which had a couple of charging stations, which I used. We just got back from a car trip to NH - no electric cords or charging stations at the motel, and NH is in that northern tier of states.

Just sayin' - it would take a huge commitment in providing charging stations, most of it by private-sector motels, to enable long distance travel in electric cars, and I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Harry

I used to travel all over North Dakota and plug ins are getting harder to find. If a motel had them, there was limited access to them. Modern automobiles will start much more reliably than those built 30-40 years ago. I never plugged in my work truck even when it hit -30F.

I can see most people having one electric and one gasser. The electric can be used to commute the few miles to work and back and the gaser for longer trips. For us west of the Mississippi it is not unusual to run a few hundred miles in a day and if I could find a charging station I really don't want to sit for an hour or two just watching electrons flow.

Some time age I saw a video and the person speaking claims in a few years, at least in the big cities, most people will not even own a car. For one reason real estate is too expensive to park one. You will get up in the morning and hop into a Uber for your ride to work. He figured there will be many companies like Uber with fleets of vehicles.

Electric cars in large numbers will happen some day, but I seriously doubt it will be as soon as planned.

[motormike]

Some time age I saw a video and the person speaking claims in a few years, at least in the big cities, most people will not even own a car. For one reason real estate is too expensive to park one. You will get up in the morning and hop into a Uber for your ride to work. He figured there will be many companies like Uber with fleets of vehicles.
.

This is probably closest to the truth. In the cities, with Uber and Lift, kids today aren't even interested in getting their drivers license at age 16. Man, when I grew up, that's the very FIRST thing you did on your 16th birthday!

[PGlaves]

This is probably closest to the truth. In the cities, with Uber and Lift, kids today aren't even interested in getting their drivers license at age 16. Man, when I grew up, that's the very FIRST thing you did on your 16th birthday!

14th in 1959 in North Dakota

[EUGENE]

Yes, N. D. is farm country!