Ethanol in fuel

[ANDYMCLAIN]

E-mailed BMW Motorrad USA "Customer Service" with this question and got the standard big corporation no response response. Thought perhaps one of our technologically or scientifically qualified members could offer an explanation. The question is this; how would increasing the amount of ethanol in gasoline affect our BMW motorcycles? Is it simply a question of tuning, or is it something about the chemistry itself akin to gasoline that used to have lead in it. For some time lead was necessary for proper valve "lubrication" and engines that needed it would be damaged if run on lead-free. If higher ethanol content would be bad for BMW engines is there a fix, or is the government simply going to screw up people's stuff? You can trust the Government, just ask any Native American!

 

[AZ-J]

Andy, our state increases ethanol during the summer, and has done so for years. It greatly affects my car and my bike. It is awful.

 

[mpmarty]

I don't use fuel with booze in it. We here in Oregon have a choice.

 

[leesrt]

I only get gas that has no ethonal. If I have to use ethonal I use on of the stabilizers on the market. Ethonal absorbs water, which causes it to separate from the gas like oil and vineger. The pure separated ethonal is hard on your seals, gasket, anything plastic or rubber. Water causes rust and other problems. Adding corn ethonal to gas was the most ill conceived thing the government has done in ages and once they start something they form beurocracy that can't be stopped.

I get about 39mpg on pure gas and 36 on ethonal 10%.

 

[rocketman]

No appeasable effects have been found in any scientific study to date.

I've been running E10 for years in my 78 airhead and modern bike and car with no ill effects and this study (just one on several) indicate that there will be none with E15 done by the Oak Ridge Labs and has been peer-reviewed by scientists.

http://cdm15025.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p266401coll4&CISOPTR=3149
and
http://growthenergy.org/images/reports/minnesota_e20execsumm.pdf

Please note in the above who contributed to the study, such as engine manufactures, universities etc.
"Research Sponsors
This research was a cooperative effort by the State of Minnesota, The Minnesota Corn Growers, The Council of
Great Lakes Governors, Minnesota State University Mankato, University of Minnesota, and the Renewable
Fuels Association with input from fuel refiners, automakers and small engine manufactures"

so I guess it boils down to what you want to believe, scientist doing scientific studies or dis-information mongers on the net funded by the oil industry.
this topic has just about been beaten to depth already..


isn't it spring YET?????


RM

 

[167702]

Hate Ethanol

Andy,

It most certainly changes my MPG by about 5 miles. I have an R1200 Gs and those tanks are plastic. so Having the gas sit in it is not as harmful as a metal tank because it doesn't rust. I have been using an additive to combat it. But anytime I am in the Keys I always fill-up at the non-Ethanol station for the ride home.

Ps E15 will be very harmful
This article helped me decide.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron//content/view/14/37/lang,en/




"Price is what you pay, Value is what you get" Warren Buffet

 

[DENKAR55]

I have a R1200RT and I have used Startron ETOH stabilizer which has been nothing less than perfect running engine and no problems related to alcohol in fuel. It is reasonably priced and really really works. I do not fear the alcohol in fuel, I fear the crap they may put in it without letting us know due to "WE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"!! Haha

 

[tourunigo]

No ethanol in Nova Scotia. Some talk but that's all as far as I know. However, be prepared to pay more for fuel here than just about any place in the U.S. We are currently $4.50 a U.S. Gal. and rising (damn speculators!). But we do have 87 (tractor fuel ) to 91 octane only. I do know that my /5 suffers a bit when I get fuel with ethanol though. - Bob

 

[greenwald]

I don't go on a long tour without an ethonol stabilizer aboard.

See one of the Touring Tips I included for the May ON issue when it comes out, or just get some stabilizer now and be ready.

My cage mechanic has skeletonal remains of parts from autos that have been eaten from within because of that corn-crap.

No more than 10% recommended by BMW themselves!

 

[Merlin III]

Like it or not, it is coming and will help stop our dependence on foreign oil. Just get in the habit of using the stabilizer now and enjoy your riding without worry.

 

[marchyman]

I have a R1200RT and I have used Startron ETOH stabilizer which has been nothing less than perfect running engine and no problems related to alcohol in fuel.

Counterpoint: I have an '05 GS ridden about 10-12K/year. It has lived on California gas with ethanol its entire life. I do NOT use any after market fuel additives. And like you, I've had zero problems related to alcohol in fuel. My other bike is only ridden 2-3K/year so gas has a chance to sit in its metal tank. No fuel issues with that bike, either. I suspect that the vast majority of California drivers (and there are a lot of them) have had no fuel related issues since the MTBE was removed.

Maybe our gas is just better than that found other places. I'd guess weather in the form of low relative humidity helps, too. And it's possible that any damage being done is happening slow enough that the problems won't show up for another 10 years.

 

[drw2ge]

Only thing I have heard of, is the Ducati issue with the tanks swelling due to ethanol... I remember when ethanol was first introduced back in the early 80's after one of the gas "crisis"... I always thought my car ran "faster"on it... but that was seat of pants in an Datsun 280Z... "What did I know?"

 

[pglaves]

Airheads suffer carburetor float deterioration and fuel line deterioration. Thus for a couple of decades Bing has sold retrofit float kits in two varieties and alcohol resistant fuel line. Most but not all fuel line now available at an auto parts store is OK too.

K75 and K100 bikes suffer damage when the fuel pump mount cushion turns to mush in ethanol fuels. If left unattended and not replaced every year or so this little $300 part turns first to mush and then to syrup, resulting in the need to replace the fuel pump and maybe the pressure regulator and maybe the injectors. The $1,000 fix for the $2,000 bike in some cases. BMW still supplies the part after 15 to 25 years but has not changed the formulation of the "rubber" it is made from.

I have not observed any specific damage to Oilheads or later bikes that can be attributed to ethanol in fuels. I did notice however that E15 fuels are approved for cars and trucks manufactured after 2001, but not for cars and trucks built earlier than that, nor for motorcycles, where the EPA has stated that testing has not been done to show that it is safe in these vehicles. Always read the fine print.

I actually prefer to follow the advice in my K75/K100 Haynes Manual which states that I should "avoid the use of fuels adulterated with alcohol."

 

[Antaeas]

Fuel additives

Jay Leno talked about fuel and additives with a pitchman from VP Racing Fuels on his site

Additives aren't cheap. I haven't used them, but I might try some this summer. Once last summer, I filled up with Shell 98 octane near Mosport Ontario, and really felt the difference.

 

[saddleman]

Just about every station around here has it in there fuel. I'm not sure if it makes any differance but I go thru at least two tanks of fuel a week & sometimes as much as 15 tanks in a week. My bike runs almost every single day so the fuel never sits very long.

 

[greenwald]

Just about every station around here has it in there fuel. I'm not sure if it makes any differance but I go thru at least two tanks of fuel a week & sometimes as much as 15 tanks in a week. My bike runs almost every single day so the fuel never sits very long.

You really need to get out there and ride more often.

 

[ANDYVH]

For my 94 R1100RS, the occassional tank of E10 only affects my mileage, which goes down simply because E10 fuel has less thermal energy in it than does pure gas. Less energy in the fuel, less energy from the engine, means lower mileage. But I avoid any E10 whenever I can, especially if my bike may sit for week unridden. I think if you go through a tank of fuel a week, one fill-up of E10 has little overall detriment. But if in my area, only E10 were available, then I would be concerned.

Now our government in their 'wisdom' gives the okie-dokey to E15 (gee, think any corn grower/ethanol lobbyists had their hands in that?) when every single professional source I have found or read says it is of little value and does indeed pose potential damage risks to engines. Yes, using E10 may reduce some of our dependence on foreign oil. But, with E15, if the overall effect reduces the actual vehicle mileage, and the consumer ends up buying MORE fuel to make up for the reduced mileage, where is the gain in it?

As with many things these days, we pay more, and get less.

 

[leesrt]

I find it funny when people start talking about scientific studies that prove ethanol is a viable fuel.
Who pays these so called scientist? Are they selling a product that gets sold...no. Maybe they sell a service which in turn is payed for by a consumer who desires that service. Maybe those payments are in the form of grants and fundings that keep them employed and provide equipment for their research. Maybe if I know my bread is being buttered by a certain grant writer I'll be a little more inclined to find evidence to support their cause. Numbers can go in many directs and if you manipulate them right they can say what you want. Go ask Al Gore.

The bottom line is corn ethanol is a very inefficient fuel source. When you count up all the energy used to grow, produce, refine, deliver, and process into fuel you come up with a 1 to 1 efficiency. In other words it takes an equal amount of energy to produce as it yields when its used. That my friends is a loosing deal.

Lets not even discuss the fact that we are tapping into a food source to provide energy.

The true way to get independent of foreign oil is to pull more of our own out of our own country. When we can sustain ourselves on our own oil we can than freely investigate other sources of "viable" energy without the threat of foreign countries, that don't like us anyway, controlling our energy source.

I guess what I'm saying is please don't buy these BS studies that rave about ethanol. Scientist told us Mt. St. Helen was going to destroy the earth, that 50 years ago we were heading for an ice age, that 10 years ago we were heading for global warming, and now tell us its not global warming but "global climate change"

Look at the evidence and think for yourselves. When you use a product that costs more to produce and lowers your gas mileage it is destined to fail.

Go here and find stations in your area that are proud to carry real gas.

http://pure-gas.org/

 

[marchyman]

The true way to get independent of foreign oil is to pull more of our own out of our own country.

There are three classifications of oil reserves. 1P (Proven), 2P (Probable, about a 50% chance of recovery), and 3P (Possible, a 5-10% chance of recovery). The US uses roughly 20 million barrels of oil per day. The current 1P US reserves are roughly 20 billion barrels. If we get every drop of those 1P reserves out of the ground we'd use it up in about 1000 days. Not very long. Just based upon current production our 1P reserves will last about 8 years.

Yeah, there's always that 300 years worth of oil under the ground that we cant get at. It falls into the 3P category of assessing reservers. The oil companies are not willing to invest the many billions of dollars necessary for a 5 - 10% chance at a payday. That could change as the price of oil rises. The cure (very high oil prices) could be worse than the sickness.

Pulling more of our own oil out of the ground is NOT the short term answer to energy independence. But then ethanol from corn probably isn't the answer, either.

 

[drw2ge]

There are three classifications of oil reserves. 1P (Proven), 2P (Probable, about a 50% chance of recovery), and 3P (Possible, a 5-10% chance of recovery). The US uses roughly 20 million barrels of oil per day. The current 1P US reserves are roughly 20 billion barrels. If we get every drop of those 1P reserves out of the ground we'd use it up in about 1000 days. Not very long. Just based upon current production our 1P reserves will last about 8 years.

Yeah, there's always that 300 years worth of oil under the ground that we cant get at. It falls into the 3P category of assessing reservers. The oil companies are not willing to invest the many billions of dollars necessary for a 5 - 10% chance at a payday. That could change as the price of oil rises. The cure (very high oil prices) could be worse than the sickness.

Pulling more of our own oil out of the ground is NOT the short term answer to energy independence. But then ethanol from corn probably isn't the answer, either.

+1... plus the time it takes to create a producing Well is years (as in 10) and how fast are we forgetting what happened to the BP offshore disaster?