At the light waiting and waiting and waiting and...

Then what would be the protocol at an intersection that never reads your existence? Sitting there is not a practical one...really.


Waiting on a larger piece of metal to pull up behind you often never happens. I have ridden aluminum & carbon fiber bicycles in a lot of towns that never see you on the loop no matter how sensitive they are set.

I have sat thru a few cycles of a non sensing loop and taken that leap of faith...one I would not be observed by the local LEO...the other that I could explain my plight and not be cited if I was. Has worked so far...

chris_d said:

Holly, I'm sure the 407 entry and exit ramps have cameras that take a pic of your plate. Your lack of toll bills is due to:
a) a damaged, missing or obscured rear plate
b) you exit the ramp at warp speed and well over to the left or right of a lane

Cheers, Chris

Click to expand...

Chris, if I can't get a clear shot at the cameras, without any cages going through at the same time, I do get a bill. They can see my plate, but the 250 alone doesn't trigger the cameras. Every other bike I've taken on the 407 does get billed.

Warp speed just doesn't happen on a 250cc bike (130 kph is the best I have managed.) I tried that bit about going well over to the side once. Have you seen all the crap on the sides? Geez, it is an expensive toll road, but not nearly as expensive as new tires. Never tried that again.

Greenwald said:

Greetings, Paul. Not picking a fight here (great respect for your mechanical talent), but......

Things have progressed (or regressed - point of view, I suppose) since your 1959 driver education.

There is no 'general rule' that I am aware of, and the 'if it didn't detect me, I can treat it as a four-way stop' most certainly will get you busted in Wisconsin, and many other states.

That 'logic' is a bit too convuluted - sort of like a 'jailhouse lawyer,' as we used to refer to prisoners who were sure they knew the law better than 'us LEO's.'

I don't know every nook and crany of our legal system - no one does, but being ignored by the variable sensitivity of a signal loop is not carte blanche permission to 'jump' to a different, more convinient interpretation at an intersection.

I urge you not to be that confident, should your bike not trip a sensor. When the Judge can't find this 'general rule,' your day could end badly.

Afterall, if you're locked up, how will we get all that great advice on maintaining our Beemers?!

Click to expand...

So, purely out of curiosity then, in Wisconsin, what are drivers supposed to do when a signal malfunctions? Lets say it stays red for 3 hours. Or the bulbs all go out? Or the power fails? Everybody sit there? Charge through the intersection as if the signal doesn't exist? What does Wisconsin law say about signal malfunctions? I'd bet it says something? Generally drivers must exercise "reasonable care." What is the standard of care required in Wisconsin?

Never mind. I found what Wisconsin law specifically says about this situation.

"4. Notwithstanding subd. 1., a motorcycle, moped, motor
bicycle, or bicycle facing a red signal at an intersection may, after
stopping as required under subd. 1. for not less than 45 seconds,
proceed cautiously through the intersection before the signal turns
green if no other vehicles are present at the intersection to actuate
the signal and the operator of the motorcycle, moped, motor
bicycle, or bicycle reasonably believes the signal is vehicle actuated.
The operator of a motorcycle, moped, motor bicycle, or bicycle
proceeding through a red signal under this subdivision
shall yield the right−of−way to any vehicular traffic, pedestrian,
bicyclist, or rider of an electric personal assistive mobility device
proceeding through a green signal at the intersection or lawfully
within a crosswalk or using the intersection.

That's interesting. In addition to Wisconsin, here's a Web page that says Minnesota, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho and North Carolina have laws allowing a motorcyclist to cautiously proceed through a red light if the traffic signal sensor fails to detect the motorcycle.

http://www.bikernation.net/stoplightbill.htm

It looks as though Utah is lagging behind on this. I just might draft a letter to my state representative suggesting a new piece of legislation.

PGlaves said:

So, purely out of curiosity then, in Wisconsin, what are drivers supposed to do when a signal malfunctions? Lets say it stays red for 3 hours. Or the bulbs all go out? Or the power fails? Everybody sit there? Charge through the intersection as if the signal doesn't exist? What does Wisconsin law say about signal malfunctions? I'd bet it says something? Generally drivers must exercise "reasonable care." What is the standard of care required in Wisconsin?

Click to expand...

Paul - glad to see you were able to access our statute about how a motorcyclist can 'option thru' a traffic control signal if his/her presence does not activate a loop sensor. I wish every state put this tool in our riding tool boxes.

As for a response to your many scenarios quoted above, this is a case of apples and oranges.

All of the 'malfunctions' you describe require innovative (and responsible) action on the part of a motorist, or the prompt response of a traffic officer to restore order.

The loop sensor not detecting your motorcycle is not a malfunction, but rather a sensitivity issue, for which you can petition local government for resolution.

Anyone self-declaring such an intersection as 'malfunctioning' could result in their day ending badly.

Ride Safe.

Maylett said:

That's interesting. In addition to Wisconsin, here's a Web page that says Minnesota, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho and North Carolina have laws allowing a motorcyclist to cautiously proceed through a red light if the traffic signal sensor fails to detect the motorcycle.

http://www.bikernation.net/stoplightbill.htm

It looks as though Utah is lagging behind on this. I just might draft a letter to my state representative suggesting a new piece of legislation.

Click to expand...

Please do so!

If you wish, you may include my name as a contact for any legislator to discuss this issue with me.

As a retired law enforcement professional and current MSF instructor, I would be glad to enlighten him/her as to the practicality and track record of this statute.

henzilla said:

Then what would be the protocol at an intersection that never reads your existence? Sitting there is not a practical one...really.


Waiting on a larger piece of metal to pull up behind you often never happens. I have ridden aluminum & carbon fiber bicycles in a lot of towns that never see you on the loop no matter how sensitive they are set.

I have sat thru a few cycles of a non sensing loop and taken that leap of faith...one I would not be observed by the local LEO...the other that I could explain my plight and not be cited if I was. Has worked so far...

Click to expand...

Please see my responses to Paul and Maylett.

Petition your state legislature to pass a law similar to Wisconsin - your gripes are legit, and you deserve equal consideration for what you ride!

Kevin, (and everybody else) - don't do what I say. Sit there till a LEO comes along and tells you what to do. You are screwed because anything you do may be illegal or be foolish.

I reluctantly agree with Kevin. Since folks can't think then the states should pass more laws so they don't have to. Here in Texas the law states that loops must detect motorcycles. So between filing a complaint charging the traffic engineer/public works director with failure to obey the law or deciding it was a malfunction ..... I know what I would do. Their defense would be that they didn't break the law - it was a malfunction. So round and round we go ......

If at the stop bar I have three technically unlawful moves I could make: right turn from left lane; unlawful lane change in the intersection; or proceed with care to turn when safe to do so. Any abusive LEO can cite me for any of these.

Since by your expert opinion, at least some LEOs would seem to think I should sit there until I starve, push my bike to the side and leave it, or some other action less safe than reasonably and carefully proceeding, I give up and fully support legislatures spelling it out so folks don't have to think or be reasonable when technology doesn't work right. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances with the judge. Won't win maybe, but it beats making a right turn from the left lane or unlawful lane change in the intersection any day of the week. That's what I would do, but nobody else should listen to me because you might get a ticket. You have been warned by somebody who knows what LEOs would do in these circumstances.

What a shame!

Edit: I corrected Kevin's name. I previously said Ken. My bad.

PGlaves said:

Ken, (and everybody else) - don't do what I say. Sit there till a LEO comes along and tells you what to do. You are screwed because anything you do may be illegal or be foolish.

I reluctantly agree with Ken. Since folks can't think then the states should pass more laws so they don't have to. Here in Texas the law states that loops must detect motorcycles. So between filing a complaint charging the traffic engineer/public works director with failure to obey the law or deciding it was a malfunction ..... I know what I would do. Their defense would be that they didn't break the law - it was a malfunction. So round and round we go ......

If at the stop bar I have three technically unlawful moves I could make: right turn from left lane; unlawful lane change in the intersection; or proceed with care to turn when safe to do so. Any abusive LEO can cite me for any of these.

Since by your expert opinion, at least some LEOs would seem to think I should sit there until I starve, push my bike to the side and leave it, or some other action less safe than reasonably and carefully proceeding, I give up and fully support legislatures spelling it out so folks don't have to think or be reasonable when technology doesn't work right. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances with the judge. Won't win maybe, but it beats making a right turn from the left lane or unlawful lane change in the intersection any day of the week. That's what I would do, but nobody else should listen to me because you might get a ticket. You have been warned by somebody who knows what LEOs would do in these circumstances.

What a shame!

Click to expand...

Ultimately, each of us must decide how to handle this occasional annoyance. I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that. Hope the future holds better experiences.


As for sitting there until you starve, I would hope that when an LEO does happen along, he shares some of his donuts with you out of compassion!

Arkansas has had a motorcycle Red Light Law since 2005.

Ralph Sims

About the only bad side effect of the fluorescent green Olympia Jacket I now wear.

When stuck at a malfunctioning light, it is now almost impossible to get anyone to pull up close enough to trip the light. Especially on a sunny day. They tend to stay about 1 or 2 car lengths back. Not that it is a bad thing.

Rod

I practice "stop, look & leave". I made it up myself. I can't wait to explain it when I get pulled over some time.

ragtoplvr said:

About the only bad side effect of the fluorescent green Olympia Jacket I now wear.

When stuck at a malfunctioning light, it is now almost impossible to get anyone to pull up close enough to trip the light. Especially on a sunny day. They tend to stay about 1 or 2 car lengths back. Not that it is a bad thing.

Rod

Click to expand...

Been there. If it looks like 'Soccer-Mom Sally' behind me is going to error on the side of caution and stay too far back to be of assistance, this works:

Activate your flashers and wave her on past you - as she performs this maneuver, the signal will trip and away you go.

"I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that."

Kevin,

I have the greatest respect for authority. I was a Building Official, Codes Enforcement, and Zoning Enforcement director for most of my 30+ year career. I clearly understand the proper and improper use of authority; even disciplined subordinates a few times because they didn't want to think. What I have a problem with is the unthinking abuse of authority.

PGlaves said:

"I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that."

Ken,

I have the greatest respect for authority. I was a Building Official, Codes Enforcement, and Zoning Enforcement director for most of my 30+ year career. I clearly understand the proper and improper use of authority; even disciplined subordinates a few times because they didn't want to think. What I have a problem with is the unthinking abuse of authority.

Click to expand...

OK - I'm with ya on that.

Like you, I wish we had fewer laws to enforce, since many are duplicated in their intent.

Not sure if 'the system' can filter itself anymore - too much bureaucracy.

Sounds like things in Texas are even more convuloted than here is WI.

Have a safe and busy (riding, that is) summer.

Greenwald said:

The loop sensor not detecting your motorcycle is not a malfunction, but rather a sensitivity issue, for which you can petition local government for resolution.

Anyone self-declaring such an intersection as 'malfunctioning' could result in their day ending badly.

Ride Safe.

Click to expand...

Under NC law, even if the detector is working and detects larger vehicles, a motorcyclist is allowed to treat it as a malfunctioning signal if it doesn't detect the motorcycle and proceed after the appropriate delay.

83014 said:

Under NC law, even if the detector is working and detects larger vehicles, a motorcyclist is allowed to treat it as a malfunctioning signal if it doesn't detect the motorcycle and proceed after the appropriate delay.

Click to expand...

Similar to Wisconsin's law (see Paul's post of the specific language), but here, it does not get classified as "malfunctioning."

Interesting.

Regardless of any law, after waiting the prescribed length of time, and proceeding, should a LEO happen upon you as you go, you will probably still get a ticket. They did not see you waiting, so it just you word, which is meaningless in traffic court.

I don't know the legal meaning of malfunction, but as a design engineer, if a sensor fails to detect an object is supposed to detect. That is a malfunction. But try proving it in court.

I suppose you can turn off the bike and push it to the corner and press the button.

Scott

TinyTrains said:

Regardless of any law, after waiting the prescribed length of time, and proceeding, should a LEO happen upon you as you go, you will probably still get a ticket. They did not see you waiting, so it just you word, which is meaningless in traffic court.

I don't know the legal meaning of malfunction, but as a design engineer, if a sensor fails to detect an object is supposed to detect. That is a malfunction. But try proving it in court.

I suppose you can turn off the bike and push it to the corner and press the button.

Scott

Click to expand...

How sad it is that we now consider sworn testimony to be "meaningless" in a court of law. I guess years of folks lying on the stand under oath brings us to that. If it happened to me I would take my bike right back to the same spot with as many witnesses as I could cajole to accompany me so that I could corroborate my version for the judge. Of course, with my luck I'd go back and the darn detector would work.