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Your speed in the twisties

No mathmatical equation works for me because I'm not looking at my speedometer.
Haven't hit a stray cow yet, or slid on a cow pie, either.

No chicken strips on the Viffer, for that matter.

As Bubba pointed out, advice for one bike doesn't neccessarily apply to another. Neither does advice for one rider. Ultimately, only one rider can get you from point A to point B and back again, and it ain't me.:brow
 
On roads I'm familiar with, I don't need the speedo, but I know that it's not unusual to enter at about 30 over the "recommended" speed on a decent road with good sight lines. Like others, I rarely decelerate for a turn that's posted at 45 or more.

On unfamiliar roads I know the 20-30 over is usually a cinch and that a hard acceleration out of the turn is the best approach for me. If I find a good stretch of road and am only out to increase my carbon footprint anyway, I'll backtrack and give it another shot if I feel like I left a little in the tank.
 
RTFlyer said:
On unfamiliar roads I know the 20-30 over is usually a cinch and that a hard acceleration out of the turn is the best approach for me.
Click to expand...

Don't try that in the Texas Big Bend - particularly Ross Maxwell Drive in the National Park or the River Road (FM170) from Lajitas to Presidio unless you are quite accomplished at riding in two-wheel drifts. There is this little matter of spots of sand on the pavement.

Which is why every spring they haul several in-over-their-head motorcyclists to the hospital and every year or so haul one or two to the morgue.
 
PGlaves said:
As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same.

I agree with Paul here. It would be nice to hear that most motorcyclists are able to correctly judge corners to avoid crashing, but the stats seem to indicate the opposite. What that means to me that the "seat of the pants" approach to corners isn't the most clever.

Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.

Nick's "Pace" concept is fun, but it flies in the face of brain wiring. When an emergency suddenly pops into view, the "fight or flight" part of the brain will take charge and command action; and the action will most likely be whatever the person has been practicing. So, if your habit is to control speed only with the throttle, and you suddenly see a moose standing in the road, it's very likely you will roll off the throttle--which only applies braking to the rear tire.

So, "The Pace" is fun, and doesn't demand a lot of skill, but it doesn't set you up to avoid sudden unexpected happenings. There are twisty roads all over the country that are testimonials to the inability of riders to manage the situation.

Over the years I've also realized the importance of smooth throttle-to-brake transitions (as taught by Lee Parks) to enable me to quickly and smoothly adjust speed depending upon what pops into view. IOW I brake a LOT on the front while cornering.

My speed is determined by the view, and my survival quotient today, not by signs or formulas. If you do want a formula, your entry speed into a corner is whatever speed will allow you to sneak on the throttle through the rest of the curve.

pmdave
Click to expand...
 
This has been a great discussion, and points out that a lot of us are interested in riding skills.

So, forum bigwigs, why don't we have a specific part of the forum dedicated to riding skills?

pmdave
 
PGlaves said:
Don't try that in the Texas Big Bend - particularly Ross Maxwell Drive in the National Park or the River Road (FM170) from Lajitas to Presidio unless you are quite accomplished at riding in two-wheel drifts. There is this little matter of spots of sand on the pavement.

Which is why every spring they haul several in-over-their-head motorcyclists to the hospital and every year or so haul one or two to the morgue.
Click to expand...

I learned that lesson in a 280Z at about 115 MPH in Colorado when I was twenty! There was sand left on the road from a previous snow. I did a couple 360's and ended up against a tree on the outside of the turn. I took the tree square on the rear drivers-side axle. About a foot forward and I would have been toast.

I'm talking about decent roads with no FOD and good sight lines.
 
pmdave said:
As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same. -- Glaves

Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface. - pmdave
Click to expand...

Great points. Maintaining a speed that provides a safe and adequate braking distance in limited-sight corners was driven home to me the few times I turned a bend at Deal's Gap or some other mountain road only to find a 5th Wheel RV across my lane.

I spend lots of time watching the surface, too. Always scanning the surface for things that might cause the tires to break loose in the corner. Looking for imperfections in the road surface or debris. I remember riding highway 16 in Virginia earlier this year and it was covered with twigs and gravel in some of the corners that required us to ride at a more conservative pace.
 
Here's the simple yet definitive answer:

The first number on the curve sign tells you what gear to be in. The bike should be "up on the cam," meaning 4500-5000 RPM.

That works for most BMW transmission ratios but NOT the C model cruiser bikes. And you should check a little when you cross state lines because some road engineers see things a little differently.

But, you are on your own out there and it is your responsibility to make sure you have good sight lines and the surface is nice.

John
 
pmdave said:
...........I agree with Paul here. It would be nice to hear that most motorcyclists are able to correctly judge corners to avoid crashing, but the stats seem to indicate the opposite. What that means to me that the "seat of the pants" approach to corners isn't the most clever.
Click to expand...

I could not disagree more, I fully agree with the sight distance being one of the important inputs, but to call reading the road, corner and exit a "seat of the pants" approach, would mean every racer that ever rode on a new track were flying by the seat of their pants. It is a SKILL, developed over time by observation and experiance. The statistics you refer to include the squids that after riding 6 months, think they are a Jedi master.



pmdave said:
Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.
Click to expand...

IMHO 1/2 on road surface is too much, it should be a split second well BEFORE turn in, to adjust speed and line, if you are looking 50' ahead, it is too late and target fixation takes over, further increasing the chance of hitting what you want to avoid, target fixation is well documented, and if at the last minute you see something you will tense up or jab the brakes and STILL hit the hazard. Only now you hit it on the brakes and with a death grip on the bars and increase your chance of loosing control. A light grip and relaxed posture lets the bike due what it was designed to o, and for 99.9% of us, the bike is better than we are.


pmdave said:
Nick's "Pace" concept is fun, but it flies in the face of brain wiring. When an emergency suddenly pops into view, the "fight or flight" part of the brain will take charge and command action; and the action will most likely be whatever the person has been practicing. So, if your habit is to control speed only with the throttle, and you suddenly see a moose standing in the road, it's very likely you will roll off the throttle--which only applies braking to the rear tire.
Click to expand...

Again disagree, I know where the brakes are and will use them when needed, and I cover them most of the time, but see above. 90% of the time you are better off looking where you want to go and trusting the bike to get you there. Many bikes, dependent on tires and geometry, will stand up when the brakes are in a corner, not good and sure to take you off the line, look WHERE you want to go and get there. Don't believe me, go to the GAP and look at the skid marks going straight off the road. Most bikes will achieve a lean angle that is well beyond what our brain is comfortable with, and that fear causes us to do the wrong thing and crash.

pmdave said:
So, "The Pace" is fun, and doesn't demand a lot of skill, but it doesn't set you up to avoid sudden unexpected happenings. There are twisty roads all over the country that are testimonials to the inability of riders to manage the situation.
Click to expand...

See previous comments , like any skill, it takes time, but once developed is invaluable. Those that choose not to continually learn are destine to fail. Knowledge and skill has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes.


pmdave said:
Over the years I've also realized the importance of smooth throttle-to-brake transitions (as taught by Lee Parks) to enable me to quickly and smoothly adjust speed depending upon what pops into view. IOW I brake a LOT on the front while cornering.
Click to expand...

Good skill, but braking IN a corner does lessen the traction for cornering, Smooth is good, and IMHO, no brakes is smoother than using them.


pmdave said:
My speed is determined by the view, and my survival quotient today, not by signs or formulas. If you do want a formula, your entry speed into a corner is whatever speed will allow you to sneak on the throttle through the rest of the curve.pmdave
Click to expand...


BINGO, that IMHO is the only way to ride the street at spirited pace, slow in fast out! Steady or accelerating all the way to the apex and beyond.
 
Ya know, there are a handful of people I just don't argue with about Proficient Motorcycling or More Proficient Motorcycling and pmdave is one of them.
 
pmdave said:
[
Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.
Click to expand...
+1

I'm highly interested in surface conditions as they'll dictate your ability to generate side loads in the corner.

When I'd been riding for 3 or 4 years, I dumped an R75/7 on an exit ramp in anti-freeze. That taught me pretty quickly to pay attention to the road surface. For me, the difficulty is that watching the road surface can lead to looking down, which doesn't help me set a proper point of aim on exit.

I constantly have to work on this, but am getting better at watching the surface, while also keeping my head up to chart a proper line and exit.
 
If you have to brake in the curve, your entry speed is too fast. The MSF defines proper entry speed as the speed which allows you to maintain or increase your speed throughout the curve. Do all of your slowing before entering the curve, then accelerate all the way through. Sure we misjudge on occasion and enter a little hot, but if that happens often, please re-think your strategy. An MSF Basic or Experienced Rider Course can do wonders for your cornering ability. A riding buddy of mine with 30 years experience recently took the Basic course. He says his cornering has improved dramatically.

Slow in, Fast out and Outside, Inside, Outside provide the most efficient cornering.

We can get away with violating these principles most of the time, but all it takes is one unexpected slick spot, animal, slow farm vehicle, on-coming traffic on our side of the road, etc. to ruin our day.

I have a friend with over a million documented miles on motorcycles who loves fast cornering. Lots of experience - no accidents - until suddenly he was lying in the bushes on the side of the road suffering from numerous contusions, a fractured collar bone, and a badly damaged motorcycle. It could have been much worse.
 
The Pace -- Nick Ienatsch

robnye said:
If I was going to point to one article that has had the greatest impact on my riding it would be The Pace by Nick Ienatsch.

Read it, ride it, love it.
Click to expand...

Great article. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance. Since the throttle wasn't slammed open at the exit of the last corner, the next corner doesn't require much, if any, braking. It isn't uncommon to ride with our group and not see a brake light flash all morning.
Click to expand...

+1 I've ridden behind people that are constantly on their brakes with no apparent plan or pattern to their braking or cornering. On the other hand, I ride frequently with a good friend who's so smooth through the corners, you can tell he's really in tune with what's going on -- when his brake light does come on, you know there's something ahead you need to be aware of.
 
TexanRT said:
Great article. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html



+1 I've ridden behind people that are constantly on their brakes with no apparent plan or pattern to their braking or cornering. On the other hand, I ride frequently with a good friend who's so smooth through the corners, you can tell he's really in tune with what's going on -- when his brake light does come on, you know there's something ahead you need to be aware of.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There are very few people I'll follow. When I see their brake light I know they see something I don't. Riders who randomly brake or brake because they can't set up / anticipate turns get passed.

I've ridden the pace behind a few "rickey racer" types. I make sure they go first and I get a chuckle at how surprised the are to see how much distance gets closed on the turns. That just makes them hammer the bike harder and go slower.

Following a good rider is like increasing your sight distance around the corner.
 
pmdave said:
PGlaves said:
As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same.

I agree with Paul here. It would be nice to hear that most motorcyclists are able to correctly judge corners to avoid crashing, but the stats seem to indicate the opposite. What that means to me that the "seat of the pants" approach to corners isn't the most clever.

Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.

Nick's "Pace" concept is fun, but it flies in the face of brain wiring. When an emergency suddenly pops into view, the "fight or flight" part of the brain will take charge and command action; and the action will most likely be whatever the person has been practicing. So, if your habit is to control speed only with the throttle, and you suddenly see a moose standing in the road, it's very likely you will roll off the throttle--which only applies braking to the rear tire.

So, "The Pace" is fun, and doesn't demand a lot of skill, but it doesn't set you up to avoid sudden unexpected happenings. There are twisty roads all over the country that are testimonials to the inability of riders to manage the situation.

Over the years I've also realized the importance of smooth throttle-to-brake transitions (as taught by Lee Parks) to enable me to quickly and smoothly adjust speed depending upon what pops into view. IOW I brake a LOT on the front while cornering.

My speed is determined by the view, and my survival quotient today, not by signs or formulas. If you do want a formula, your entry speed into a corner is whatever speed will allow you to sneak on the throttle through the rest of the curve.

pmdave
Click to expand...

Dave,

Are you finding that you need different skill sets to ride the Spyder?
Click to expand...
 
KBasa said:
+1

I'm highly interested in surface conditions as they'll dictate your ability to generate side loads in the corner.

When I'd been riding for 3 or 4 years, I dumped an R75/7 on an exit ramp in anti-freeze. That taught me pretty quickly to pay attention to the road surface. For me, the difficulty is that watching the road surface can lead to looking down, which doesn't help me set a proper point of aim on exit.

I constantly have to work on this, but am getting better at watching the surface, while also keeping my head up to chart a proper line and exit.
Click to expand...

Anti freeze is very slippery and you're not the first to dump your bike due too the presence of the stuff! I too try to pay attention to the vagaries of the the road surface. Always a smart policy though not always followed.
JD
 
Speed is an interesting discussion. But of course there's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than going fast around corners. There is an interesting report from Northen Ireland that includes the opinions of riders about training, experience, etc.. Here's a chart that depicts their opinion of "what is learned with experience"

Note that "cornering" isn't high on the list.

pmdave
 

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