Thoughts on BMW

AKsuited said:

It's too bad what has transpired with the 2014 R1200RTW. It does illustrate that making a product more complex with the ESA suspension gizmo may not make for a better product. It violates the KISS principle. As others have mentioned, many of us could and would do just fine without fancy ESA systems. But the new RT illustrates another point, that BMW has grudgingly acknowledged that having to pull a bike completely apart to do spline lubes is a PITA for the consumer, it raises maintenance costs, and that splines are a vulnerability that can result in very costly repairs. Some argue that a dry clutch keeps the oil cleaner, but I think BMW has moved towards keeping maintenance costs down and improved reliability by switching to the industry standard, the wet clutch.

Harry

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I really agree about the complexity of things like ESA. I know some testers rave about it, but I always wonder about the long term reliability. I enjoy being able to call Ted Porter and have him set up a more simply designed, robust, easily rebuildable shock for my specifications.

I recently stopped in at Sierra BMW while on a trip. They had two customers ready to leave on an extended trip on new RT's. They said BMW is taking very good care of them. It sounds like they will get every penny back on the RT's even though they had some miles on them, and are getting good prices on two new GTL's.

For a lot of issues someone in the collective will figure out a fix. Unfortunately some things like the recent ESA issue are probably too complex of a problem. That's why I tend to be wary of overly complex things.

AKsuited said:

But the new RT illustrates another point, that BMW has grudgingly acknowledged that having to pull a bike completely apart to do spline lubes is a PITA for the consumer, it raises maintenance costs, and that splines are a vulnerability that can result in very costly repairs.

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Clutch to transmission input spline problems have not been much of an issue since the hexheads were released about 10 years ago now. Sure, there have been problems... I have some pictures of one such issue. But the problems seem pretty rare. No need to split the bike to lube splines as a general maintenance procedure has been shown and some have put LOTS of miles on their hexheads since '04. People who split the bike for other reasons often comment on how well the splines look. In that respect I don't see moving to an integrated transmission with wet clutch as a grudgingly acknowledgement.

If I have one complaint about the new engine it is that it is a lot noisier than the engine in my '05. Or maybe it's just that the noises are different or at a different pitch. Earplugs make it better.

PGlaves said:

I am going to hypothesize here that BMW just might be learning something about innovation for innovation's sake. The debacle which is the "do not ride" and "do not sell" the new RT bikes coupled with the we "might have a fix by September", etc ought to be instructive.

Because the suspension system is so complex there is no immediate fix and BMW has had to scramble with deals to keep folks less than totally unhappy. I have not followed the details - our newest bike is a 2007.

I hope BMW will conclude that for some things at least, simple is better. I do like lots of new technology. Fuel injection and ABS come to mind. Dynamic computer linked front and rear suspension on a street bike seems a lot like over kill.

One more comment before I get off the soapbox. I would suggest folks closely look at the timing of BMW's QC issues compared to the timing of the unification of East and West Germanies, and the dramatically changing German labor force. Also consider the employment requirements imposed during unification and you might find a quality control bad guy bigger than "the car guys". If ever a BMW motorcycle was designed by the car guys it was the original classic K bikes - K100 and K75, and they didn't turn out too bad now, did they.

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It might also have to do with the vendors they use too. In the last 10-15 years we see a more global approach to vendors by manufacturers and even the vendors have vendors from who knows where. I bet at one time that BMW made the vast majority of parts that went into their bikes. To buttress your point though, a lot of changes with immigration happened in Europe over this time as well, which had an effect on the labor force. Here's a good article on quality fade with China, but it could be applied elsewhere. http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/quality-fade-chinas-great-business-challenge/

Generally speaking, people attack the messenger when they don't like what he or she has to say, which in this case goes against some people's bike religion. Call it apostasy if you will. It's the same thing when people use the term conspiracy theorist (How timely it is that Lionel made a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMBgt_zalew). It's an effort to stifle discussion that they either don't want to hear/agree with or don't understand. I don't find anything Chris says offensive or think it comes from a greasy whatever. The guy probably has forgotten more about BMWs than most people here know. That said, it is what it is, which is his opinion. So what? Like a buffet, we should be able to pick and choose what we like, leave what we don't and skip justifying why.

AKsuited said:

............ It does illustrate that making a product more complex with the ESA suspension gizmo may not make for a better product. It violates the KISS principle.
Harry

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jeffkruger said:

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Unfortunately some things like the recent ESA issue are probably too complex of a problem. That's why I tend to be wary of overly complex things.

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I'm old enough to remember when the "just another thing to break" thought process was applied to automatic transmissions, air conditioning and power windows.
If, IMO, you don't take a chance once in a while, your missin' out.

ponch1 said:

It might also have to do with the vendors they use too. In the last 10-15 years we see a more global approach to vendors by manufacturers and even the vendors have vendors from who knows where. I bet at one time that BMW made the vast majority of parts that went into their bikes.

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While changing out the battery in the F800GS the other day, the piece just below the battery had made in Taiwan in the mold ID
I hear Ford and GM are teaming up on a joint venture on a transmission. I guess the fact I really can't tell one car from another with also include drive trains in the future.

OM

Omega Man said:

I'm old enough to remember when the "just another thing to break" thought process was applied to automatic transmissions, air conditioning and power windows.
If, IMO, you don't take a chance once in a while, your missin' out.


While changing out the battery in the F800GS the other day, the piece just below the battery had made in Taiwan in the mold ID
I hear Ford and GM are teaming up on a joint venture on a transmission. I guess the fact I really can't tell one car from another with also include drive trains in the future.

OM

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You are right that there is no progress or worthwhile innovation without something first being "new". As a consumer I have the choice on when or if I am willing to try a new technology. Maybe ESA will one day be standard equipment and as reliable as ABS is currently. As of right now it doesn't appear to be there yet and I choose to not buy a bike that has it.

I have been on the bleeding edge of so many things over the years that I have become somewhat immune to hardware failures giving me high blood pressure. Age has a way of giving wisdom and the ability to pick your fights.

I love my BMW's: X5-3.5d (mine), X3 (hers) and R1200RT (ours). I do a lot of PM and routine maintenance, and pretty much can work on anything on the RT, including resetting the computer reminders. If anything breaks, it gets fixed and I get on with it. I will agree that BMW has totally lost the idea of KISS, but the trade-offs are probably worth it because I am a techno-geek and love playing with all the goodies.

I'm going riding now ! Have a great weekend everybody !

ESA isn't that new in bike years. We have 2 05 K bikes with it as well as my "old" 09 GSA. They all still work and I use mine a lot. My GSA's control units are mated to Wilbers and have a lot of miles.

Speaking of another outsourcing, I noticed a Yuasa battery in a camhead GSA instead of the former Exides the 05' s had.

I didn't think I needed ABS brakes when I bought a used RT...learned that they are a nice modern feature quickly. I also don't miss dinkin' with a carbureted bike...even though I still have a few that still need some regular dinkin'

henzilla said:

Speaking of another outsourcing, I noticed a Yuasa battery in a camhead GSA instead of the former Exides the 05' s had.

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Same horse different name.......

http://yuasabatteries.com/history.php

36654 said:

Same horse different name.......

http://yuasabatteries.com/history.php

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Well, how about that...

ponch1 said:

Generally speaking, people attack the messenger when they don't like what he or she has to say, which in this case goes against some people's bike religion. Call it apostasy if you will. It's the same thing when people use the term conspiracy theorist (How timely it is that Lionel made a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMBgt_zalew). It's an effort to stifle discussion that they either don't want to hear/agree with or don't understand. I don't find anything Chris says offensive or think it comes from a greasy whatever. The guy probably has forgotten more about BMWs than most people here know. That said, it is what it is, which is his opinion. So what? Like a buffet, we should be able to pick and choose what we like, leave what we don't and skip justifying why.

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FWIW-My "greasy guy" reference is just my personal way of saying a real, hands on, mechanic. I was one and it is a compliment coming from me!
and I was not offended by Chris's comments in the least and even if I disagreed with him (which I did in small parts) I like to read both sides of an issue as it's refreshing (also can tick you off at times, I admit!-like with politics) to know how other people think. Insular approach is stifling!

Overall it's great that companies like BMW continue to develop new technologies and ways of doing things. That's how we end up with the "next great thing".

When I was younger I was always willing to jump on the latest, greatest bandwagon and wanted the newest tech stuff. Any more, I prefer to stay away from some new things until they have been adequately proven, at least in my mind. We are fortunate to live in a time when advances seem to be somewhat leaping forward, and we are blessed as consumers with many great choices.

As for what ponch1 said about attacking the messenger. That is behavior straight out of Rule's for Radicals. Attack the messenger, not the message. Though it doesn't seem to be what happened in that case. Many folks that have never ever read Alinsky still act in ways that are spelled out very clearly in his writing.

kantuckid said:

FWIW-My "greasy guy" reference is just my personal way of saying a real, hands on, mechanic. I was one and it is a compliment coming from me!
and I was not offended by Chris's comments in the least and even if I disagreed with him (which I did in small parts) I like to read both sides of an issue as it's refreshing (also can tick you off at times, I admit!-like with politics) to know how other people think. Insular approach is stifling!

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You should watch his video on the 1200LT if you like to be entertained.

marchyman said:

Normal scheduled maintenance is no harder on a modern bike compared to an airhead. Easier, actually, as there is less to do and it is done less often. If there is a down side it is that some may neglect a good inspection of the state of the bike. The real difference between the airhead and the current bikes is that you are comfortable with the airhead and the issues that are common to that series. If you wanted to you could get just as comfortable with the new bikes. You don't want to. That's fine.

I like working on my '13 as well as I like working on the '66. The '66 needs maintenance 5 times more often than the '13. That may be why I ride the '13 5 times as much. Both bikes provided me an excuse to buy new tools.

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Well put, I agree 100%. Each bike has it's maintenance requirements and I always learned as I went along, I learned very fast on my PD because it needed lots of fiddling to keep it running tip top. My K100 is just about car like in it's maintenance requirements but since I had it stripped apart before I ever rode it (brand new, insurance sale from a fire, smoke damage only) I learned a lot about it early on as well. The R1200's require a new set of electronic "tools" but that sure makes diagnosis easier. Of course there are more things to go wrong but there are some benefits as well (like more than double the horsepower with 75% of the fuel consumption. Electronics does some amazing things but if it fails (which is not often) it is hard to fix it with wire, duct tape and the tools in the tool kit while sitting on the side of the road. I like my airhead and my brick but from a power, handling, braking and efficiency point of view they have been left behind by the R1200's. BMW Motorrad has chosen a path that is similar to all the German car makers (for better or for worse), they will apply a heavy dose of technology to differentiate their product. Regulation and legislation is going to give them more reason to choose this path, I don't see them going in a different direction any time soon.
I too have many tools because I had lots of excuses to buy them.

Paladinwest said:

...........like more than double the horsepower with 75% of the fuel consumption............

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Your R1200 is getting 1/3 more MPG than what prior BMW?

Two cents on thoughts about BMW. On the measure of the whole, BMW has been more an object of enriching my life than a negative. Even considering having to fix stuff, getting parts, dealing with dealers, doing the maintenance, etc., it's been a total sum gain.

So, going way back when to the twenties a guy or two started producing the twins up to today, I would say that as a product BMW has made the world a better place. Would have to exclude war production, speaking of bikes in my life. I'm happier because of my BMWs. They've put a wind in my face, a smile to my lips and the lesson of patience.

36654 said:

Your R1200 is getting 1/3 more MPG than what prior BMW?

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R100GSPD (See sig line)
And that is with the Bings tuned to the hilt with aircraft (pinned) floats. It used to drive a friend with an R100GS nuts that I could consistently get 5 to 10% better fuel mileage than him when we rode together on long trips.

Paladinwest said:

R100GSPD (See sig line)
And that is with the Bings tuned to the hilt with aircraft (pinned) floats. It used to drive a friend with an R100GS nuts that I could consistently get 5 to 10% better fuel mileage than him when we rode together on long trips.

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....1/3 better MPG than your R100GS, which gets 5 to 10% better mileage than your buddy's R100GS. So, considering that I get ~45 MPG with a R11RS, that has decent aerodynamics, how bad is the mileage on a R100GS or fantastic on a R1200GS?

I think the advances in technology good or bad affects us in many aspects of our lives.
I have a 2012 Ford F150 XL (bottom of the line) truck that had a window sticker of $36k. Everything is electronic controlled and complex and I wonder what will happen when it gets older, my goal is to keep it 10 years 200k miles.
Is this technology good or even needed? My truck has a 360 HP 380 lb-ft 5.0 v8, 8200 lb gvw and will tow 9300 lbs while delivering close to 20 mpg, unloaded, on the highway. My 79 F150 I had years ago had about 195 HP 5200 gvw and got about 10 mpg.
The 12 is not maintenance friendly, it does not even have a transmission dipstick, where as the 79 I would do all the work on it myself, which was a good thing because it needed it often.
I sell and repair vacuum cleaners and they have become so complex I spend more time with a multimeter than I used to. I even have an infrared thermometer. There is a Dyson in particular that has 4 circuit boards!
Do you need this technology to vacuum you rug?
Sometimes manufacturers try somethings that don't work out, servo brakes, but some do workout. Some with a little more refining, compair the first ABS to what we have today.
If manufacturers didn't try new technology we would still be kick starting our 4 speed R69 with drum brakes and Earls forks. But for some this is enough.

It seems that the new technology is here to stay. But you would think that the new technology would undergo some serious testing before the product is released to the public. You seriously wonder what kind of product testing is going on when you can walk into a dealership and buy a new RT and have the "rear suspension collapse" after only 700 miles on the odometer. A second bike had suspension failure with only 1500 miles.

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2014/07/03/manufacturers/bmw/2014-bmw-r1200rt-officially-recalled-us/

E.