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Tier 1 Gasoline

I live in a moderate size city, it has been years since I have seen a gas truck that
said Chevron or Shell or any major brand on the side of the truck. I wonder sometimes if the same truck goes from one station to another regardless of what
brand the station is selling. On a brighter note, it's nice to see that the United States now has so much oil that we are exporting it. This was in the business
section of the paper a few weeks ago.
 
Ethanol gas doesn't store well and as a result, the ethanol is blended with gas when it is loaded into the tanker for delivery. The mixture varies from one load to another. It has been said around here that they have found as much as 30% ethanol at times. When the vehicle I am using runs "funny", I don't do anything until I have run another tank of fuel through it.
 
Had to google that notion-seems we export almost 2million barrels to our buddies & of course we bring in lots. Most Pemex gas in Mexico has no ethanol yet but they are playing with doing it @ a 3% rate in the future. Bike runs great there on the 87 low grade.
 
I've posted this on a few threads but I'll say it again, if you believe that one brand of gas is better than another you are fooling yourself.

I currently work at a blending terminal and have previously worked at a pipeline. On the pipeline end, we'd get BP, Shell, Citgo, etc. etc. and they'd all go into the same tanks on top of each other (in the industry this is called fungibility)and get pumped out to various terminals across the United States. At the terminals they'd go right onto trucks and to different gas stations, they weren't reblended or given any additives based on brand. Similarly, often we'd receive BP gas that was intended for a Motiva (shell) terminal and vice versa.

At the terminal I currently work at we blend the gasoline and most of the customers (with the exception of BP) are companies you've never heard of, for example Koch, G.E Warren, etc. and their gas is bought by the major brands and distributed. When the gas is being blended it's blended to just meet specs and nothing more. You'd really be amazed at the various blendstocks that make up modern gas and companies don't like to waste any little bit.

That being said, I do believe that the gas station you buy from does make a difference and this is irrelevant to brand. I only buy my premium (93 octane) at places that have a different hose per grade, so as to not get a hosefull of 87 octane. this might not make a difference so much in my wife's 18.5 gal. tank in her Passat, but it sure does in my airhead . Also, I try to go to places where I know there's a frequent turnover of gasoline to avoid old gas and moisture. You could also shop at newer places to ensure clean tanks, but that doesn't mean the tanker truck that fills the tanks doesn't pump dirt and water into it, so I'd rather go somewhere where the gas is constantly being refilled and outputted.
 
A top tier problem locally in the news tonight...

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/austin/vehicles-stall-from-tainted-gas

and as Typ181R90 just posted, having maintained the electrical service going into one of those distribution terminals east of Austin I have seen every labled/non labled tanker come in and load up in line with each other.

Yes, maybe the additive blend is specific to major brands...or should be according to marketing . In TX the State Agriculture Dept. checks the pump volume vs price calibration and put a sticker on the pump every year or two...but I have a feeling no octane or quality test is done.
 
When the gas is being blended it's blended to just meet specs and nothing more. You'd really be amazed at the various blendstocks that make up modern gas and companies don't like to waste any little bit.

Haha- No kidding! I was looking at an MSDS for a brand of gasoline not too long ago- under the components- it listed its main ingredient as "Miscellaneous Hydrocarbon Products - 55%"

Yup-- just pour together whatever you have on hand, and then add some additives to get it up to specs.....
 
And I still carry a bottle of IsoHeet in the red bottle (isopropyl alcohol) when traveling. We have gotten doses of water a couple of times in the past two years.

I am curious, do you add the IsoHeet at each fill-up while travelling, or only if you suspect bad gas at a given fill-up?
 
If that had read, "Chevron, BP. Shell, and Arco established a standard ... " I would certainly think marketing ploy. But why would "BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota..." dream up a ploy to market specific brands of gasoline. That doesn't compute to me.

In 2004 BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota established a proprietary standard for a class of gasoline called Top Tier Detergent Gasoline with increased levels of detergents. Volkswagen/Audi joined the consortium in 2007.

Gas brands can participate and get Top Tier listing if they meet certain standards


it simply seems to me that if the auto makers invent a *standard* that makers of gasoline *can choose* to meet, then it behooves the gas companies to meet the newly invented standard in order to "comply". we, as consumers, will go to (or look for) the recommended brands, who are in "compliance" with the formerly non-existent "standard"...

i admit to not knowing much about sales and marketing... but is that not marketing in its base form?
 
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.​

But do they mean it? Lots of stations on the pure gas (no ethanol) web site are stations for oil companies that also claim to meet top tier standards. :dunno

from what i have read, ethanol does not remain stable, or well blended, so the results may vary wildly at the pump. hearsay, i admit (well i read it on the internet)

anyone?
EDIT: post #22 appears to address this question.

Frank, have you tried running STP Gas Treatment (mineral spirits) or Paul G's ISOHEET in your bike? just wondering if there's any additive that will/can compensate for the variances in blends, ethanol content, etc.?

so-called Top Tier gas seems to only address detergent content? or do i have this wrong? it still sounds like pure BS to me, especially in light of above posts relating to gasoline blending techniques & brands, etc.

too bad there's no QUALITY STANDARD for gasoline.
 
My 1st wife at one time was the tanker dispatcher for a small local oil/gas distributor, back in the late 80's. She said the same thing back as mentioned above, that all the "brands" are really the same gas stock from the refineries and some of the major brands have an additive package the lesser known brands don't have.

Based on that going back to the 80s and what is said above, I'd certainly believe it. Although, I do try to buy well known brands of gas more often than the lesser known brands.

Here in Wisconsin and Iowa, the Kwik-Trip brand of convenience stores are huge and in almost any city big enough to have a store. For years their have advertised "top tier garauntee", they insure you'll never have a "fuel related engine problem" using Kwik-Trip gas. Interesting marketing ploy. For one, if you did have a problem, you'd have to prove it was their gas, and you'd have to prove their gas specifically caused the problem. Well, if they're getting the gas from the same stock as everyone else, how could you ever prove it was their specific fuel?

That said, in over 210,000 miles on both of my BMWs I have never had a fuel related engine problem (knock on wood, or noggin, same thing)
 
According to a friend of mine who ran an independent gas station and also delivered gas to many other stations in town (branded and not), there is a limit on how much detergent you can add to gas. He and his family ran a station that catered to the elderly and women. They pumped the gas for them and treated them like royalty. They added as all of the detergents that they law would allow because many of the cars weren't driven much. It's not often that you find one of the wealthiest men in town sweeping the parking lot and pumping gas for women and the elderly when he was himself in his mid 70s. He was one of the only wealthy people I have ever known that was liked by everyone and nobody was jealous of.
 
additives

BMWRIDER88: Hey Tom: I've not used any additives for several years. Then it only being Stabil . I ride both the Norton and the BMW through the winter, road conditions permitting. I would be open to trying something to help on road trips. Something to dip in the tank that would absorb water or show excessive ethanol. So I keep watching for new developments. I do feel fortunate in having the choice of non-ethanol fuel at about 20 cents a gallon more than regular. I even run it in the Saturn wagon. Millage increase and cost per gallon increase make it about a wash in cost per mile but it seams to run better. No riding today, 3 inches of snow already and still coming. frank coleman
 
What we need is for somebody to follow a tanker after it visits Brand S and see where it goes. Does it go to Brand M or another Brand S? Does it make a stop at Brand XXX before heading back to the depot?

As mentioned above, you just don't see brand-name tank trucks anymore; all I see are "Joe's Trucking" type of things, and the trucks don't always look well-maintained.

And we all know not to fill-up while the tanker is off-loading or immediately after. Gets all the gunk stirred up off the storage tank's bottom, and you don't want that in your finely crafted fuel system.

pete :violin
 
Lots of missing the point here.

Yes, the gas is all the same, and various companies do indeed add their additive package.

BUT, it's the additive package that makes the gas "top tier," so the fact the base gas is the same isn't really so relevant.

The exposes, lawsuits, etc., would already have happened if the additives weren't being added as advertised.
 
Lots of missing the point here.

Yes, the gas is all the same, and various companies do indeed add their additive package.

BUT, it's the additive package that makes the gas "top tier," so the fact the base gas is the same isn't really so relevant.

The exposes, lawsuits, etc., would already have happened if the additives weren't being added as advertised.


Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand.

When you look at a CofA you realize just how barely the stuff meets spec and how important ethanol is to modern reformulated gasoline as the regular gas pre-blend is 83 octane. Once you add the ethanol, assuming you blend it properly, you bring the octane up to 87 or close to it, the process was the same for 93 octane stuff (89-91 pre blend octane)

if you're worried about poor ethanol blending, buy 93 grade as that will meet at least 87 octane specs even if there's no ethanol in it. I've seen it added to vehicles pre-blend and can attest to it
 
Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand.

Have a good vocabulary, but had to look fungible up:

Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as crude oil, wheat, precious metals or currencies. For example, if someone lends another person a $10 bill, it does not matter if they are given back the same $10 bill or a different one, since currency is fungible; if someone lends another person their car, however, they would not expect to be given back a different car, even of the same make and model, as cars are not fungible. - Wikipedia

So, if I understand it, you said a top=tier customer has specific requirements and their own tank. Gas is blended and put into that tank and tested, then pumped into a general ownership tank with other blends then into a truck ...

If I were a a top-tier gas seller and found this out, I would be angry, or should be angry at least. It sounds very unethical as a practice and might even be against the contract with the top-tier gas organization.
 
Have a good vocabulary, but had to look fungible up:

Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as crude oil, wheat, precious metals or currencies. For example, if someone lends another person a $10 bill, it does not matter if they are given back the same $10 bill or a different one, since currency is fungible; if someone lends another person their car, however, they would not expect to be given back a different car, even of the same make and model, as cars are not fungible. - Wikipedia

So, if I understand it, you said a top=tier customer has specific requirements and their own tank. Gas is blended and put into that tank and tested, then pumped into a general ownership tank with other blends then into a truck ...

If I were a a top-tier gas seller and found this out, I would be angry, or should be angry at least. It sounds very unethical as a practice and might even be against the contract with the top-tier gas organization.

No, it's the industry that wants it this way. When I started at the pipeline there was still one grade that could not be mixed, that was BP "Water White" Premium, that had a special tank and couldn't be commingled with other brands. The guys that had been at the company longer used to say that all of the tanks were customer based and dyed as such, for example Mobil might have blue gas, shell might have red, and so on. The petro companies abandoned this practice and by the time I left the company to go to the terminal the BP Water White was long gone too.

Working on the pipeline we'd receive product from let's say Shell with various batch numbers intended for different customers right off the bat, 20kbbls might be headed for BP, another 45.0kbbls may go to Wawa. We received product directly from a Conoco Phillips refinery, a Sunoco refinery, and a Hess refinery that were all intended for different customers and placed in fungible tanks. These tanks are only storage mediums, the customers (i.e oil companies) decide how their product is handled and if they want it isolated it can be, but that's not the case anymore

certified post-blend reformulated "gasoline" is fungible

I understand what you mean though, the current practice of gas storage would be like taking wine from a variety of producers, mixing it and then just selling it as wine instead of specifically by field or grower which I'd say is unethical, but surprise, oil companies tend not to share the same ethical standards as the rest of us
 
Right, but what I'm saying is that this additive package is irrelevant once it goes to tankage. At the blending terminal I work at the product is not fungible, each customer has a different tank and blends according to their specs, however once it's blended and gets a CofA (certificate of analysis) it gets put into tankage with various other brands that may have been blended differently and then trucked out. The CofA is what makes the product fungible and trust me, the additives are there during blend, but once they reach the pump, you're not getting additives specific to any brand.

When you look at a CofA you realize just how barely the stuff meets spec and how important ethanol is to modern reformulated gasoline as the regular gas pre-blend is 83 octane. Once you add the ethanol, assuming you blend it properly, you bring the octane up to 87 or close to it, the process was the same for 93 octane stuff (89-91 pre blend octane)

if you're worried about poor ethanol blending, buy 93 grade as that will meet at least 87 octane specs even if there's no ethanol in it. I've seen it added to vehicles pre-blend and can attest to it


No, it's the industry that wants it this way. When I started at the pipeline there was still one grade that could not be mixed, that was BP "Water White" Premium, that had a special tank and couldn't be commingled with other brands. The guys that had been at the company longer used to say that all of the tanks were customer based and dyed as such, for example Mobil might have blue gas, shell might have red, and so on. The petro companies abandoned this practice and by the time I left the company to go to the terminal the BP Water White was long gone too.

Working on the pipeline we'd receive product from let's say Shell with various batch numbers intended for different customers right off the bat, 20kbbls might be headed for BP, another 45.0kbbls may go to Wawa. We received product directly from a Conoco Phillips refinery, a Sunoco refinery, and a Hess refinery that were all intended for different customers and placed in fungible tanks. These tanks are only storage mediums, the customers (i.e oil companies) decide how their product is handled and if they want it isolated it can be, but that's not the case anymore

certified post-blend reformulated "gasoline" is fungible

I understand what you mean though, the current practice of gas storage would be like taking wine from a variety of producers, mixing it and then just selling it as wine instead of specifically by field or grower which I'd say is unethical, but surprise, oil companies tend not to share the same ethical standards as the rest of us

as i'm pretty sure i mentioned earlier- at least once, pure BS. smoke and mirrors. as always it's the customers who get the shaft.
 
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