Clutch in or out on a swerve??

I like this explanation the best.

natrab said:

Keep in mind if you're turning and you pull in the clutch, it's similar to chopping the throttle and will decrease your control of the bike or even stand it up if leaned over. Swerving should be done with the throttle steady on and leave the clutch alone.

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And I quote, "leave the clutch alone." That leaves all the guessing out of, engaged or disengaged.

DW

BCKRider said:

I think pulling in the clutch is a small form of braking, even if you don't touch your brakes. .

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you are free to think that, but it's not a very inaccurate description of what happens regarding traction and power delivery.
squeezing clutch merely stops additional power.. you are now coasting. coasting puts no additional traction demands upon the tire, other than the basic physics of the bike (weight, centrifugal/centripetal forces, etc). Yes, you will eventually come to a stop like that.. eventually. but not quickly enough to call it any form of braking. Chopping throttle, a legitimate form of slowing due to engine braking, puts a greater traction demand upon the tire than was there under steady throttle or acceleration- it is an active form of deceleration.
those who teach coasting thru a swerve are attempting to address this concern: you want no additional power-related demands placed upon the tire's traction capabilities during a swerve, and disengaging clutch ensures that.

I prefer to trust my right wrist to remain steady during a swerve (a low wrist position is a real benefit here) than to play around with clutch in/clutch out positioning, and hoping that I don't change things at a critical time during the swerve. that, and the concerns about driveline reengagement once the swerve is completed, has me continuing to advise "leave the clutch (and throttle and brakes) during a swerve".

maybe someone who has direct experience teaching both methods would like to chime in to give a differing viewpoint.

Believe whatever you think is the right technique, but I'll always argue the Clutch Engaged Steady Throttle Swerve technique, mostly on one factor: TIME. All you really have TIME to do is Press-Press to effectively manage a swerve.

In most all cases a swerve is an evasive manuever requiring a lot of focus, input, control, quick response, and very effective visual control. Given all that, in the spilt second decision timing of "avoid the child, the animal, the huge pothole, the Buick," whatever, you have SO litlte time to effectively change position AND control traction that I feel there is NO time to pull in the clutch/disengage power. Your mission and focus is to avoid whatever is in your path, IMMEDIATELY and EFFECTIVELY.

Trying to determine your path/escape route, steady throttle, manage traction, press-press (assertively) to get the bike to QUICKLY change position, control your path of travel, AND repsond as needed once past the danger takes ALL of your effort and focus. Adding a useless step like disengaging the clutch delays the process and effective action/result of the swerve. Also, disengaging the clutch upsets the chassis stability while at the same time you are attempting to use all traction to quickly change direction. Clutch out, engaged, steady throttle.

Pulling in the clutch is NOT a small form of braking, but it IS a form of weight transfer on the bike chassis. With steady power applied, via the clutch, the loading at the front tire is consistent. When power is interrupted, depending on the bike CG, weight distribution may affect traction at the front tire. I say "may" because it is dependent on the bike wheelbase, CG, bike loading, etc. It is too general a statement to say it is the same for all bike and rider/load combinations. Again, steady throttle maintains steady loading at the front tire.

ANDYVH said:

Believe whatever you think is the right technique, but I'll always argue the Clutch Engaged Steady Throttle Swerve technique, mostly on one factor: TIME. All you really have TIME to do is Press-Press to effectively manage a swerve.

In most all cases a swerve is an evasive manuever requiring a lot of focus, input, control, quick response, and very effective visual control. Given all that, in the spilt second decision timing of "avoid the child, the animal, the huge pothole, the Buick," whatever, you have SO litlte time to effectively change position AND control traction that I feel there is NO time to pull in the clutch/disengage power. Your mission and focus is to avoid whatever is in your path, IMMEDIATELY and EFFECTIVELY.

Trying to determine your path/escape route, steady throttle, manage traction, press-press (assertively) to get the bike to QUICKLY change position, control your path of travel, AND repsond as needed once past the danger takes ALL of your effort and focus. Adding a useless step like disengaging the clutch delays the process and effective action/result of the swerve. Also, disengaging the clutch upsets the chassis stability while at the same time you are attempting to use all traction to quickly change direction. Clutch out, engaged, steady throttle.

Pulling in the clutch is NOT a small form of braking, but it IS a form of weight transfer on the bike chassis. With steady power applied, via the clutch, the loading at the front tire is consistent. When power is interrupted, depending on the bike CG, weight distribution may affect traction at the front tire. I say "may" because it is dependent on the bike wheelbase, CG, bike loading, etc. It is too general a statement to say it is the same for all bike and rider/load combinations. Again, steady throttle maintains steady loading at the front tire.

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+1 (as is typical for your posts, AVH)

I'm not a teacher, but if I may share some practical Real-World experience -
Having lived in the Los Angeles area for for over 35 years (and living in another huge east-coast city prior to that, plus a bit of over-seas travel), and riding the various terrains and hazards around here, including Quite a bit of white-lining:
B'Fish and Andy are right on. Leave the damn clutch alone and shift your weight to execute an evasive maneuver. It should be ingrained instinct (and classes can help this aspect), because you WON'T have the time to "think" about anything else.


(The Enterprise don' need no steenkin' clutch... just slam it!)

Pauls1150 said:

I'm not a teacher, but if I may share some practical Real-World experience -
Having lived in the Los Angeles area for for over 35 years (and living in another huge east-coast city prior to that, plus a bit of over-seas travel), and riding the various terrains and hazards around here, including Quite a bit of white-lining:
B'Fish and Andy are right on. Leave the damn clutch alone and shift your weight to execute an evasive maneuver. It should be ingrained instinct (and classes can help this aspect), because you WON'T have the time to "think" about anything else.


(The Enterprise don' need no steenkin' clutch... just slam it!)

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why bother shifting weight? just "press-press" to accomplish the swerve, keep your body quiet.

Depends on the individual case. I may not need to shift my butt, but my shoulders & torso will probably move.

Pauls1150 said:

Depends on the individual case. I may not need to shift my butt, but my shoulders & torso will probably move.

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not really. if you focus on just pressing with your hands, your torso should remain fairly steady. if you focus on moving your body around, you're wasting time and energy that could be utilized in effecting a more efficient swerve maneuver.
it's all in how you envision the initiation of the action. initiating a swerve by moving your shoulders, torso, hips, knees or elbows are a waste of time, and produce no benefit.

I really don't specifically focus on moving my body around, but you have some good points, thanks.
Thinking about it, though, I do think I move my hips (or maybe this is part of changing my input to the pegs) - an RT is lot of weight to flick.

And thanks for the tire deal info, too - my neighbor has those on his Buell and likes 'em.

To summarize:

- steady throttle
- push/push around the issue at hand
- shift your body weight if you want
- Wheelie and victory sign
- Autographs on a donation-to-favourite-charity basis
- Enterprise has a dry clutch, its not warped, but you don't need to use it

I think that covers it.

OK... Instructor hat on.

We MSF Ridercoaches teach the swerve as two quick countersteer operations, with your torso upright. Let the bike roll around under you and do not try to lean with the bike as it will slow the roll rate. Separate the braking, if any, from the swerving simply because if you do the two quick countersteer maneuvers correctly you will be using essentially all the available traction getting the bike around the problem. If you attempt braking you will almost guarantee a low-side crash when a wheel locks up.

If you attempt to pull in the clutch lever when doing this, you will destabilize the suspension of the motorcycle and probably end up hitting the object your are trying to avoid.

A better survival plan is to keep enough space - the "space cushion" (a reactionary gap ) between yourself and anything in front of you so you do not have to execute a swerve as an emergency maneuver. No tailgating ever !, and keep your head on a swivel to avoid problems in the first place.

While we are on the topic of swerving, how many of you actually practice that regularly ? It is one of three emergency maneuvers that are volatile skills that you will lose if not practiced.

The other two are emergency stops straight ahead, and emergency stops in curves, both left and right.

How many of you with ABS brakes actually know what they do on your bike ? Go out and do a few quick stops and see how the ABS reacts. You really need to know the capabilities.

Please consider taking a MSF course as a refresher, Basic Ridercourse, Basic Ridercourse 2, or the new Advanced Rider Course. You will have a fun time doing the exercises, and might learn something. I have had many riders take refresher courses over the years and they all say they either learned something new, or corrected bad habits they had gotten into over time.

The absolutely best feedback we receive is when former students come to visit us at class or see us on the road and tell us that something they learned in class saved a bad crash. That makes it worth all the blazing hot days we stand out on the range dodging motorcycles. That is priceless.

Ride safe out there and remember: You are invisible and everyone is out to kill you. Act accordingly.

Pauls1150 said:

Enterprise - Would that be wet or dry?

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It is a well know fact that dilithium crystals are dry. At quantum level it probably does not matter anyway.

But the act of observing them changes their state...

And Heisenberg was absolutely right.

Even entropy isn't what it used to be...

we are offering some BRC2 classes (the intermediate course, what was previously the Experienced Rider Course) at the National this year. Stop by and watch the swerving! (and cornering. and braking. and more cornering. and more braking.) Better yet- join in the serious fun (because motorcycling is both bun, and serious), sign up for a class.

Clutch fully released, steady throttle.

"Entropy aint what it used to be"

Sounds like a quote from Yogi Beara's physicist brother.

It's deja vu all over again!

ka5ysy said:

OK... Instructor hat on...................snip............................

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Your QAV is going to suffer here, you failed to set up the segment with the rationale.

bikerfish1100 said:

we are offering some BRC2 classes (the intermediate course, what was previously the Experienced Rider Course) at the National this year. Stop by and watch the swerving! (and cornering. and braking. and more cornering. and more braking.) Better yet- join in the serious fun (because motorcycling is both bun, and serious), sign up for a class.

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You all need to get up with the BMW Performance Center motorcycle instructors, they teach to disengage the clutch during the swerve, but at the National they will be teaching ERC, which teaches to keep the clutch engaged. hmmmmm?? Two different methods or a contradiction??? I teach/swerve with clutch engaged and focus on what I am swerving around................

ka5ysy said:

The absolutely best feedback we receive is when former students come to visit us at class or see us on the road and tell us that something they learned in class saved a bad crash. That makes it worth all the blazing hot days we stand out on the range dodging motorcycles. That is priceless.

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Okay, here's mine: I look over my left shoulder on an Interstate. I look forward only to see that the road has curved to the left and I am headed towards the guardrail (not good). Without having to think, I press left, go left, and regain control of my motorcycle. I learned countersteering in the MSF BRC years ago. In another incident, I was looking to the left to see how high the water was in a near flood. The road curved right: I pushed right, went right in order to regain control and avoid riding into the median at 70 mph, which would have probably wrecked the bike and spoiled the trip I was on, and possibly put me in the hosptital for weeks. What I am getting it is, thank you MSF instructors, you are doing good!

Ride safe out there and remember: You are invisible and everyone is out to kill you. Act accordingly.

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Act accordingly: wear something visible like a white helmet and/or hi-viz to be easily spotted, and engage your best defensive driving skills as well.

Harry

rad said:

Your QAV is going to suffer here, you failed to set up the segment with the rationale.

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Yep... but I read the card !