This is going to be unpopular

Let's see if I have this straight

If I understand this correctly, the arguments are:

Pro Day pass:
1. Don't want to pay for unused camp spot.
2. Don't want to pay for days unattended.
3. Promotional value for the club.

Anti Day pass:
1. Logistical/Security complications
a) At least 5 different colored wrist-bands required: full 3 day attendee, vendor, different color for each day attendees.
b) Greater exposure to liability claims associated with the Beer Garden.
c) Would require a curfew/closing time with associated manpower/patrols to enforce.

Aside from remarks about snobbery or cheapness, have I missed anything of substance?

Monches rider said:

Ducatimom's post is pretty much what I was thinking after reading all these posts after I pretty much agreed with the original post here. My position was much different from most of the attendees that I was just local and just wanted jump in see whats what and get out. What gets me about some of these snive ... It seems that change is something that is not welcome at these rallies unless somewhere I missed the post that stated "maybe we can look into it" or something to that effect. I guess I was a little turned off by going to the rally but I am more turned off by the responses here in this post.

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I may or may not agree with you and ducatimom that some of the posts in this thread are worthy of shaming, my own included. If the forum is to be instruments of change (stopping the discussion and maintaining the status quo is a form of change from the arguing so settle down in the peanut gallery) we have to expect that it will be messy at times.

The starting point of this discussion as I understand it is to offer a day pass or not to offer a day pass. To me the process of change requires that we listen and deal with issues rather than the hyperbolae from any side of the argument. If I am turned off by anything in threads like this it is the failure to listen what is meaning of what is said instead of how the message is delivered.

Day passes can result in one or combination of four possible effects or consequences:
• a positive unexpected benefit which I can not identify because of its unexpected nature.
• a potential source of problems, the fear of which drives much of the hyperbolae on all sides.
• a negative or a perverse effect, crime or liability from beer sales are frequently argued examples.
• A positive planed benefits such as increased attendance and recruitment and peace in our time.

I am open to the idea of day passes, yet before we go there I still want someone to riddle me this and have consensus on the answer. What is the purpose of the rally? Is it a recruitment tool? Is it only for the members as a gathering of the members?

If it is a recruitment tool then it seems obvious that we need more types of passes with day passes as one of them.

If it is a members gathering then the answer is not as clear.

Forget the gathering of friends comments and the fear of increased crime as arguments to deal with. As I understand it the largest single most amount of rally profit is derived from the sale of beer and beverages in the beer tent. This revenue is used to contain increases in the cost of admission to future rallies and provides seed money to deal with a variety of future rally issues. Therefore no matter your side of the argument it should not be made without considering how the decision impacts the beer garden, its revenues and if negatively impacted how the organization will offset that revenue loss. In addition the group’s decision must be portable to future rally venues.

I am much more interested in why you were turned off a bit by going to the rally, than what either of us thinks of everyones posts.

In the end this is an association of riders talking on the internet about stuff. We all need to chill at times in these threads.

M1ka said:

In the end this is an association of riders talking on the internet about stuff. We all need to chill at times in these threads.

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can I get you an aspirin?

Finally you offer an asprin when I probably should be duct taping my hands behind my back.

In the end this is an association of riders talking on the internet about stuff. We all need to chill at times in these threads.

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And, as ever with a suggestion of doing it differently, it will take a single, very motivated individual willing to sacrifice the time and effort to make the case to the right people and in the right way, be the first to volunteer to find the resources, convince folks to give up their Rally time to volunteer, train them, manage the entire operation, take the heat for when it goes wrong, and fully expect little credit or praise other than a good feeling of having done the job. Then looking at all the time and effort and judging whether it was worth it, and whether to do it all over again the next year would be easier than finding someone with an equal passion and commitment willing to make the same sacrifice.

In general, suggestions that start with "You should..." and end with someone else doing additional volunteer work, seldom get far.

Ted said:

And, as ever with a suggestion of doing it differently, it will take a single, very motivated individual willing to sacrifice the time and effort to make the case to the right people and in the right way, be the first to volunteer to find the resources, convince folks to give up their Rally time to volunteer, train them, manage the entire operation, take the heat for when it goes wrong, and fully expect little credit or praise other than a good feeling of having done the job. Then looking at all the time and effort and judging whether it was worth it, and whether to do it all over again the next year would be easier than finding someone with an equal passion and commitment willing to make the same sacrifice.

In general, suggestions that start with "You should..." and end with someone else doing additional volunteer work, seldom get far.

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Pontificating does not cut it either.

There are people amoung us who are willing to put ideas together, and put the effort forward to make them work. Several of us have made suggestions:


Where do we take them?
Who do we present to?
What is the secret hand shake to get in and try?

LoL - again you are expecting someone else to do the work for you. If you want this done, stop asking how and just do it - try, and if you meet resistance, try another way. Keep going, keep motivated, and learn to move around those who actively block you.

How do you think this very website was created?

(PS - OK, I would start with the most obvious ... Contact next year's Rally Chair and volunteer to create, recruit, plan, supply, staff, and run everything related to adding day passes and/or ala carte pricing. Do it yourself and take personal responsibility, no-one in their right mind would trust this to "a group of us.")

Obviously you are not one to help someone who is willing to step up.

Several of us have been contacting those who you suggested and beating our heads against the wall.

Obviously you are not one to help someone who is willing to step up.

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In this case, you're right - I think day passes and ala carte pricing are stupid ideas. I've seen them tried and I've seen them fail. That said, I would love to be proven wrong (though you'll have to actually prove me wrong in a way other than just telling me I am wrong because I won't prove myself wrong LoL.)

Several of us have been contacting those who you suggested and beating our heads against the wall.

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Keep at it, try a different approach, nothing succeeds like taking personal responsibility and showing a deep commitment through acts and not just words. Try to get people on message boards to do all the work for you then complain when they won't. OK, scratch the last part, but do consider the first.

Ted said:

How do you think this very website was created?

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and look how long the website sat stagnant while offers to help update it were dismissed or ignored, I know I sent a few e-mails (to you in fact) in that regards many moons ago offering to help.

I still don't understand why it took 7++ yearsof asking for a flea market for it to be added...I volunteered for that also but was ignored, remember when we had a website volunteer page?

in my 9 years I've learned... its tough to get involved in this organization, you have to know somebody. I'm not talking about volunteering at the national rather really "getting involved"

is it so hard to at least answer an e-mail declining the offer of help???

That is pretty good stuff

ducatimom said:

Eh, a bunch of things really. I was married the first time really young and thought I had so much time to get around to it when I felt like it. Then I had my kids and time just did not seem conductive to the idea.

I spent quite a few years working in various jobs which did not require college to find that no matter what flavor the industry had, the same issues cropped up. If I was helpful: it implied an opinion of their incompetency, if I did my job really well: it implied that I was after my superior's title, if I didn't poo on the person everyone else pooed on: I was anti-social... I guess the final flame under my butt to just GO to college was the desire to hopefully educate myself out of the inevitable soap operas, or at least into a bit more "high brow" versions. I guess I was just tired of banging my head on the same nonsensical walls that kept popping up.

Now the kids are old enough to not require constant hands on parenting and they are pretty into the routine now. I had been working towards a degree in Forensic Science-Biology, but have just switched to dual degrees in Psychology and Criminal Justice.

Long story short, I want to be really good at something that in some little way makes the world a bit better...

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Have you ever read the book "The Games People Play" by Eric Berne. It really helps you understand the backgrounds and viewpoints of others and why they have that view point. In addition, the book allows you to understand the outcome the person may have been looking for.

It appears to me that one very important point has been slighted in this forum discussion. I believe that the rally has historically and purposely been presented as a general membership party and that attendance is somewhat restricted to membership. (technically it is open to all- the only bar being a full price admission) I also believe that a good portion of rally attendees view it as such. I also believe that many members view the rally as a membership benefit. These are assumptions and are not supported by other than anecdotal evidence.
Perhaps others can add a deeper historical perspective.
If for a moment the above were accepted as fact, it would appear that a referendum would be required to initiate a basic change in the rally format. The National Rally belongs to the general membership, does it not? It does not belong to the BOD, Rally chair, or a few here.
Working out details, how do we police armbands, etc. before addressing the overall question, if a general change in the National Rally direction is acceptable to the overall membership, will surely produce much frustration. P-ssing in the wind, I would think.

Motard

Ted said:

In this case, you're right - I think day passes and ala carte pricing are stupid ideas. I've seen them tried and I've seen them fail. That said, I would love to be proven wrong (though you'll have to actually prove me wrong in a way other than just telling me I am wrong because I won't prove myself wrong LoL.)

Keep at it, try a different approach, nothing succeeds like taking personal responsibility and showing a deep commitment through acts and not just words. Try to get people on message boards to do all the work for you then complain when they won't. OK, scratch the last part, but do consider the first.

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I am not interested in proving you right or wrong about anything. You come off as one who is never wrong in his own mind and that is fine.

As I stated before I am not in favor of day passes as they have been described in this thread to this point. I did offer a suggestion that was an attempt to address some of the underlying issues that have been raised in this thread and the last BoD meeting. Yes that did include the ambassadors as part of the process but they do not need be part of the final solution. It was a model intended as a starting point for discussion, not necessarily a final solution. It seemed a model that we could all understand if not agree upon and build from there to address members needs and concerns.

Motard again raises a fundamental question, what is the purpose of the rally? The answer to that takes you most of the way to resolving this topic, yet with all your insights you only keep them to yourself.

Since 1986 when I first joined the MOA I have tried to become involved in various issues at various times. I do not belong to nor am I interested in belonging to a local club. This is not meant as a value judgment on them or their members. It is not my nature or part of my interest in belonging to the MOA. The by laws of the organization do not require me to be a local member to participate, but I realize the reality is that to be heard and get past the gate keepers like you I would have to be. In the past that is.

What you and others that worked to get the website and forum going did was create a way for me to participate. Yet when I or others like myself try to participate you pull this secret handshake crap. ÔÇÿYou have not paid your dues like the rest of us.ÔÇÖ DuÔÇÖoh your right because the club never had a means that allowed us to.

Take personal responsibility and action is your mantra in response to anything said. The daily post I do was started as an effort to demonstrate that we could bring things to the forum to talk about besides bitches. I read a thread looking for information and I will suggest a search that could be done and links to information I have at hand. I have no illusion it is as important to the club as starting the forum, but it is what I can contribute at the time with the tools and skills I have at the moment. This may not meet your lofty standards of responsibility and action but today in this thread I may take that as a compliment to me rather than a failure on my part.

I am dumb enough to get up again when I am knocked down. I try to find another way when I find myself blocked. I just hope that when I reach some solid ground I am willing to reach back to pull my fellow members along, instead of cynically stepping on their fingers while I lol.

I wasn't a member when I went and I thoroughly enjoyed myself. I came, I volunteered, I made friends, looked at bikes, met friends I already had, danced and partied. I was sad when I pulled into the garage that it was over. The price felt like a bargain to me. Maybe your level commitment to the event wasn't worth what you paid. Maybe you failed to maximize it's value. The value was there to be had if you wanted it.

Mongo said:

...The value was there to be had if you wanted it.

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+1

Is everyone in this club so insecure with their identities that we have page after page of posts revileing someone who dares to think differently then the mass? Will we try and divert the killers looking for Salman Rushdie long enough to eradicate the heretic who dared to make a suggestion on how he might want to enjoy the sacred rally? Do the Danish cartoonists breathe easier knowing that a new gentile has become the focus of a Jihad? Is the new "Invisible Man" the single day attendee? Must we call on Atticus Finch to defend this new Tom Robinson?

There is always great concern about the future health of this club. "We have met the enemy and he is us!" Walt Kelly

You come off as one who is never wrong in his own mind and that is fine.

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I don't think anyone starts out thinking "Gee I am really wrong on this, off I go." That said, when I am shown a better way I like to think I gracefully embrace it - as Hodag bitterly reminded us, when I stepped down from being Webmaster and Ian succeeded in his relentless pursuit to bring in a professional firm to recreate the backend and bring the site into the modern age. They and Scott, Ian and others have really done a magnificent job.

I'll end this just by saying if you want it to happen, do it. It will take time and commitment and you probably won't end up with much more than folks complaining it wasn't done their way, but it will be accomplished.

Were it my cause I would start by finding events that have successfully done it, interviewing the folks in charge and finding out how it worked and why. Then I would compare it with the MOA rallies, interview past Rally chairs and find their objections. Then formulate a broad plan showing how and why it should be done. Meet each argument against with an overpowering reason for. Pre-recruit qualified volunteers willing to give up their time at the National, and make a strong showing that it at least will not be a money loser. Then push it. Win the decision makers over individually, show up at a board meeting and ask to present it.

It takes one motivated person - make sense and make headway and others will follow.

After all we probably wouldn't have a MOA Foundation right now if Clark and Roger hadn't bit in and not let go.

Ted said:

It takes one motivated person - make sense and make headway and others will follow.

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Gee Pogo, thanks for your permission to pursue my roll as a BMW MOA member. I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

Think I'll take my part off line and work with some other misfits on a presentation.

I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

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That's a good start.

Gina's dream

She gazes into the BMW Motorad Dealership with a glint of green showing in her iris, the returning reflection is her new Gs that. Oh sorry I thought this was about nothing

Nice Post

Cheers Michael

I Love Salty Fog