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Oil Analysis Update?
- Thread starter 20774
- Start date
Preliminary Results
OK, I've compiled the results and have produced the charts, though they may be tweaked as I figure out how to present this. This first attachment shows the basic info that I gathered for each of the 18 oils. They are grouped by oil type as in petro, blended (or semi-synthetic), and full synthetic. I gave each one an ID for testing purposes and use that as my identifiers in the plots. It makes things more uniform in the plots, but harder to look at a plot and know what oil it is. You need the "scorecard" to do that.
OK, I've compiled the results and have produced the charts, though they may be tweaked as I figure out how to present this. This first attachment shows the basic info that I gathered for each of the 18 oils. They are grouped by oil type as in petro, blended (or semi-synthetic), and full synthetic. I gave each one an ID for testing purposes and use that as my identifiers in the plots. It makes things more uniform in the plots, but harder to look at a plot and know what oil it is. You need the "scorecard" to do that.
Zddp
This is the chart of the zinc and phosphorus content. For the most part, if an oil has mulitple API ratings (say SG/SH/SJ), the results suggest that the oil really represents the highest API rating. I've put the highest API rating at the bottom of each column. I'm still looking in this but I believe the mandated changes to ZDDP were to keep the phosphorus levels low...I'm trying to determine if that affected the zinc as well.
I'm a little suspicious of the Golden Spectro 4 (MOA11) results. These don't compare very well with past testing. When I was putting together my samples to send off, I noticed that the bottle of oil I got had already been opened. Spectro oils (and BMW's) have plastic seals under the cap. This GS4 bottle had been broken. I wondered about that but went ahead with the test. I've asked the company if this might be a contributing factor, which would mean a retest with a new sample.
This is the chart of the zinc and phosphorus content. For the most part, if an oil has mulitple API ratings (say SG/SH/SJ), the results suggest that the oil really represents the highest API rating. I've put the highest API rating at the bottom of each column. I'm still looking in this but I believe the mandated changes to ZDDP were to keep the phosphorus levels low...I'm trying to determine if that affected the zinc as well.
I'm a little suspicious of the Golden Spectro 4 (MOA11) results. These don't compare very well with past testing. When I was putting together my samples to send off, I noticed that the bottle of oil I got had already been opened. Spectro oils (and BMW's) have plastic seals under the cap. This GS4 bottle had been broken. I wondered about that but went ahead with the test. I've asked the company if this might be a contributing factor, which would mean a retest with a new sample.
Viscosity
This shows the viscosity value for each oil...there was one 40w oil in the group. I've listed the range of viscosity that makes up a 40 or 50w oil. The line that runs through the plot is where the viscosity falls within that range, as plotted against the right-hand axis. So, if a % of grade value is 50%, then the tested viscosity falls exactly in the middle of the grade range for that weight of oil.
I note that Spectro 4 (MOA01) and BMW's petro 20w50 (MOA02) are made by the same company and the results for ZDDP compare well between them. However, BMW's viscosity value was quite a bit lower than the Spectro oil.
This shows the viscosity value for each oil...there was one 40w oil in the group. I've listed the range of viscosity that makes up a 40 or 50w oil. The line that runs through the plot is where the viscosity falls within that range, as plotted against the right-hand axis. So, if a % of grade value is 50%, then the tested viscosity falls exactly in the middle of the grade range for that weight of oil.
I note that Spectro 4 (MOA01) and BMW's petro 20w50 (MOA02) are made by the same company and the results for ZDDP compare well between them. However, BMW's viscosity value was quite a bit lower than the Spectro oil.
happy wanderer
Day Dreaming ...
Thanks for this great data Kurt. I've used Castrol 4T motorcycle oil for years in all my bikes and always wondered about how it stacked up against Castrol GTX which is really a car oil many others use. Turns out there is not much difference other than the 4T is SG and SH rated. GTX has higher ratings so one would assume less zinc and phosphorus. Not so.
Also appears my buddies who swear by Redline are onto a good thing.
Yep, this is really great stuff!
Also appears my buddies who swear by Redline are onto a good thing.
Yep, this is really great stuff!
I'm not into synthetics but that Redline is out there!
Amzoil vs Mobil 1
I am not supprised by Mobil 1 zddp being as high or higher than Amzoil, since you ran an unbiased test instead of an advertisement disguised an oil evaluation.
I am also not surprised that the BMW / Spectro oils proved so superior in the conventional oil comparison in Zddp levels.
So good job on the comparisons, it gives everyone some real data to consider. I just wonder if there is a point where the higher Zddp numbers do not equate to higher wear protection.
Also those who believe in Castrol GTX oil have some real data to support their own experience.
I know it would be too costly to run wear test (such as the ball bearing test AMZ uses in their unbiased testing ads) on oil that has been run a few thousand miles already. The stuff of oil threaders dreams!
I am not supprised by Mobil 1 zddp being as high or higher than Amzoil, since you ran an unbiased test instead of an advertisement disguised an oil evaluation.
I am also not surprised that the BMW / Spectro oils proved so superior in the conventional oil comparison in Zddp levels.
So good job on the comparisons, it gives everyone some real data to consider. I just wonder if there is a point where the higher Zddp numbers do not equate to higher wear protection.
Also those who believe in Castrol GTX oil have some real data to support their own experience.
I know it would be too costly to run wear test (such as the ball bearing test AMZ uses in their unbiased testing ads) on oil that has been run a few thousand miles already. The stuff of oil threaders dreams!
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So to summarize, depending on ambient air temp, looks to me like any of these 15/50 or 20-50 oils in the test will work fine. They are all above the 1200 ppm zinc level that BMW specs. Everybody has their favorite oil, just like ice cream.
I probably would stay away from using the oils with low TBN numbers unless I saw a used analysis on the oil.
Its interesting to see the Harley Oil ( I think Citgo blend ) numbers. Harley puts this oil in all their bikes engine, primary & transmission coming out of the factory except the CVO models, these ones get their synthetic oil. As others have noted looks like this stock oil would work fine for those that are on the road and can't find their favorite brand.
So are we any wiser. Let the debate continue.
I probably would stay away from using the oils with low TBN numbers unless I saw a used analysis on the oil.
Its interesting to see the Harley Oil ( I think Citgo blend ) numbers. Harley puts this oil in all their bikes engine, primary & transmission coming out of the factory except the CVO models, these ones get their synthetic oil. As others have noted looks like this stock oil would work fine for those that are on the road and can't find their favorite brand.
So are we any wiser. Let the debate continue.
photorider
New member
Thanks for doing this, Kurt. What I want to know is what oil YOU are going to put in your bike with all this newfound knowledge!
Ha! Good question!! I'm a dino man, and have been using BMW's oil for a while now. I was glad to see that BMW and the Spectro 4 compared so close since they're made by the same company. I was a little disappointed to see that BMW's version didn't rate as high within the range of a 50w as compared to the Spectro brand. The TBN's for both oils are the lowest of the petro oils...that's disappointing.
I like the healthy zinc and phosphorus of either of these two oils. I think I'm going to switch to Spectro 4 now that I've found a local source...and it's cheaper!!
For synthetic, the Mobil 1 V-Twin and Redline sure seem like good choices all the way around.
I sent off a new sample of Golden Spectro 4 for testing. I think something is wrong with my sample...I mentioned the seal was broken. GS4 ranked much better than that when test by Jeffrey and Matt previously. Could be that the formulation has changed...
I like the healthy zinc and phosphorus of either of these two oils. I think I'm going to switch to Spectro 4 now that I've found a local source...and it's cheaper!!
For synthetic, the Mobil 1 V-Twin and Redline sure seem like good choices all the way around.
I sent off a new sample of Golden Spectro 4 for testing. I think something is wrong with my sample...I mentioned the seal was broken. GS4 ranked much better than that when test by Jeffrey and Matt previously. Could be that the formulation has changed...
Stan_R80/7
New member
Just in case anyone was wondering why oil additives are needed: the additives (specifically ZDDP) are anti-scuff protection for the cam and lifters for airhead engines (or any flat tappet engine). Here is a technical article I thought was pretty good describing the cam lubrication and tactfully describing the lack of protection from modern engine oils: http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1/EP012008_8-16.pdf
kballowe
Poser
For Harleys, at least - two conventional oils that show excellent numbers in used oil analysis are the Genuine Harley-Davidson HD360 20W-50 and the Valvoline VR-1 20W-50.
Havoline 20W-50 comes in a close second.
www.bobistheoilguy.com
Lots of used oil anslysis for lots of vehicles, and they also have a used oil analysis section for motorcycles.
BTW: There is a virgin oil analysis section that may or may not provide some of the information that you're looking for.
Havoline 20W-50 comes in a close second.
www.bobistheoilguy.com
Lots of used oil anslysis for lots of vehicles, and they also have a used oil analysis section for motorcycles.
BTW: There is a virgin oil analysis section that may or may not provide some of the information that you're looking for.
The Harley oil results are rather mediocre if you check the previously posted values for ZDDP. It is the best petro oil for TBN which might make it good from a "used" oil analysis standpoint. But it really falls down with the ZDDP blending.
As for the VR-1 oil, it's middle of the pack for ZDDP although it's TBN value is better than some.
Virgin oil analyses have been done and shown on the web...but it didn't have the range of oil types that I think we tossed around here. It just made more sense to do the test for "our" oils and represents a single snapshot right now.
I decided to retest one oil (Spectro Golden4) and have received the results. I'll be updating the plots and my article once I get some comments back on what I've written.
As for the VR-1 oil, it's middle of the pack for ZDDP although it's TBN value is better than some.
Virgin oil analyses have been done and shown on the web...but it didn't have the range of oil types that I think we tossed around here. It just made more sense to do the test for "our" oils and represents a single snapshot right now.
I decided to retest one oil (Spectro Golden4) and have received the results. I'll be updating the plots and my article once I get some comments back on what I've written.
melville
Member
I'm not surprised--Harleys all have roller cam followers and therefore do not need the ZDDP like Airheads do.
typ181r90
Superkraut
Kurt,
Could you explain a little bit more about the viscosity chart. Basically what I'm getting from it is that the redline indicates the actual viscosity of the product at 100C, so the BMW (MOA02) tested really is acting as a 30 weight, while shell Rotella (MOA07) is acting around a 36 weight. Sorry if this is sorta a braindead question, that's the only chart I have trouble following. I assume a higher redline is better?
Could you explain a little bit more about the viscosity chart. Basically what I'm getting from it is that the redline indicates the actual viscosity of the product at 100C, so the BMW (MOA02) tested really is acting as a 30 weight, while shell Rotella (MOA07) is acting around a 36 weight. Sorry if this is sorta a braindead question, that's the only chart I have trouble following. I assume a higher redline is better?
Sure...I think I've addressed it better in the article. Oils are blended with viscosity improvers so that it falls within a range to be called a 50w or a 40w oil. That range is given in the upper left of the figure. The measure is the amount of oil that will flow through a specific orifice over a period of time at 100 deg C. A 50w oil can be anywhere within the 21.89 to 16.3 range. Over time, the viscosity improvers break down and the actual value of the oil within this range will drop. It's an easy leap to say that if an oil starts out near 21.89 when new, then after a normal use cycle in the engine, it stands a better of chance of still being within the range and rated as a 50w oil, giving you the protection you need.
As for the red line, I'm showing the oil's "percent of grade" which is simply the viscosity value from the testing lab interporlated to where it falls between the top and bottom range. So, taking BMW's petro oil (MOA02), the lab returned a value of 18.22. Thus 18.22 falls at the 34.3% level between 21.89 and 16.3. This "percent of grade" is plotted against the right-hand axis. On the other hand, Shell Rotella (a 15w40) oil had a viscosity rating of 15.6 which is at the 81.8% level between 16.29 to 12.5. It rates very high within the range for a 40w oil.
Oil companies can blend to whereever they want in the range. Blending to very high within the range costs more money but might make a better oil. Using an oil that just barely qualifies as a 50w oil might not be such a good idea as it will degrade over time and likely fall out of the 50w oil range. The Liqui Moly was around the 25% value which was the lowest of all the tested oils.
Quote: " It's an easy leap to say that if an oil starts out near 21.89 when new, then after a normal use cycle in the engine, it stands a better of chance of still being within the range and rated as a 50w oil, giving you the protection you need. " That statement is an assumption not a fact.
I don't think it is that easy to draw this conclusion from any of the oil tests that where done. One might think that is what happens but without actual used oil analyses it is not factual to draw this conclusion. For example there are many used oil samples that show MOB 1 Vtwin actually increased its viscosity.
I don't think it is that easy to draw this conclusion from any of the oil tests that where done. One might think that is what happens but without actual used oil analyses it is not factual to draw this conclusion. For example there are many used oil samples that show MOB 1 Vtwin actually increased its viscosity.