Closed thread

I participate in another forum which has an "off topic" thread also. There, you have to sign up and ask the moderator for access, before you can even read. Doing so, you are being given notice that you enter and participate at "your own risk". Posts there cannot be seen by the public and there is no issue about debates going over the sidelines.
Ever so often, the moderator moves a thread in there, so the hotheads can continue their banter, provided they sign up for participation.

What I have seen here in a couple of threads lately, is not only posters disagree with someones opinion and voice this disagreement in amanne that sounds like a personal attack, but also posters take other's voicing a different opinion as a personal attack.

For those who say this is a BMW motorcycle website and there shouldn't be a discussion about anything else, I would remind you that the topic of Pete Seeger was not opened in one of the motorcycle threads, it was opened under "Forum: Campfire.... for everything else."

You have a thread where people who wish to do so can get off the subject of motorcycles.
If you don't want to read about anything but motorcycles, nobody is forcing you to read what is in "Campfire."

Rudyjo said:

For those who say this is a BMW motorcycle website and there shouldn't be a discussion about anything else, I would remind you that the topic of Pete Seeger was not opened in one of the motorcycle threads, it was opened under "Forum: Campfire.... for everything else."

You have a thread where people who wish to do so can get off the subject of motorcycles.
If you don't want to read about anything but motorcycles, nobody is forcing you to read what is in "Campfire."

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I mentioned that I don't want to hear about politics and such on a motorcycle forum. I also mentioned that just like another forum I belong to it's easy enough to avoid the off topic section if I don't like it. It's also very easy to read the posting guidelines and stay within bounds. The moderators have to monitor all the threads and shut it down when it gets to heated because people can't seem to disagree without taking umbrage and insulting each other, which leads nowhere. I agree with you Rudyjo and also don't see a problem with the moderators shutting down a thread if it starts to go south and people can't remain civil.

Been on a lotta forums. I admit to being opinionated and don't shy away from stating my opinion. I was even kicked off the FJRForum for stating the fact that I believed the guy running the site needed professional help, which he does. After years of this I have come to the conclusion that the absolute right to free speech as defined by the Constitution of the USA is detrimental to a club forum such as MOA if there are not limitations. Things like religion, politics and maybe even oil threads divide the membership and accomplish absolutely nothing. STN had a dog pound where anything went for a long time. It finally got to threats of personal violence. If you want to debate contentious subjects there is no shortage of sites to do that.

chewbacca said:

It finally got to threats of personal violence. .

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Don't go there...

Ian

chewbacca said:

After years of this I have come to the conclusion that the absolute right to free speech as defined by the Constitution of the USA is detrimental to a club forum such as MOA if there are not limitations.

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There is no absolute right to free speech in a private club.

tommcgee said:

There is no absolute right to free speech in a private club.

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I agree, that private anything (businesses, etc) have the right to limit whatever they want.

However, having a thick skin, and realizing that forum rules can be changed and are prone to interpretation (as all writings are) I would like to see rules loosened. In agreement with Visian above (I think) the word is don't go there, if offended.

I personally, think that certain courtesies ought to be observed, but hard to define on paper. Things like foul language (now that's difficult to define) or simply crass language (even harder) and certainly NO personal attacks. I come from a background in Philosophy where ideas are argued vehemently and when going on, you would think that they hated each other. Then after, you would see them laughing and joking together over lunch!

Don't get me wrong, I certainly am not perfect, but if I detect that my personal opinions/language/etc. are offending someone, I really try to watch what I say to them. In life, I still want to strongly disagree with someone, and be able to express that, and yet hope that they would understand and we still could be friends, maybe not close friends, but friends nontheless. Like I say, though, I am not perfect. Maybe someday I will be, but at my rate of improvement, I will end up being perfect about 50 years after I kick the bucket!

For example, for me, I really don't like when I go to the MOA website, and a picture of a scantily clad woman shows up. Now, I am not a prude, but honestly, doesn't appeal to me at all, and I just don't like it. I don't complain, because that sort of thing is everywhere. I figure that I (i.e. me, personally) have to learn to deal with it. On occasion, I have checked the web site during lunch at work, and there, the image has popped up. Someone walking by, not caring to find out the whole story, could conclude some pretty problematic stuff about me!

The argument that says if you are offended then don't look is specious and sophomoric. Firstly, the MOA forum is the place I go when I do not want to be offended. The idea of opening a seperate area where the rules are suspended and then telling us if you're offended don't look, is a bit like telling someone to don't look when a bar/gambling casino opens in the middle of a residential area.

I'm no Saint and I have crossed the line a time or two on this forum and was appropriately admonished. However, I and many other like minded members will do all that we can to see that the current posting guidlines remain in-place and will support their vigorous enforcement by the Moderators.

Telling me to look away from an area of the forum if it offends me is no different then me telling other members to go away and start your own forum if you do not like the conditions here.

akbeemer said:

Telling me to look away from an area of the forum if it offends me is no different then me telling other members to go away and start your own forum if you do not like the conditions here.

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That's why I think it would work if that particular section had limited access only to those who explicitly ask for permission to access and receive a "waiver" agreement that they would have to accept prior to receiving that permission. Then, all the mudslingers would be in a little cell with rubber walls, where they could harass each other

jimmylee said:

I come from a background in Philosophy where ideas are argued vehemently and when going on, you would think that they hated each other. Then after, you would see them laughing and joking together over lunch!

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I certainly agree with this conceptually but I'm not sure of the scenario you are describing. I'm assuming that the interaction you describe is a face-to-face "discussion". The one thing that makes the forum so difficult for this to happen is that we aren't in the same room and can't read body language...this has been mentioned here many times. Now if two or more people already know each other and understand at another level what the other person means or knows how to read between the lines, than being on the forum works for them. But that doesn't apply to virtually all of us since we don't know much of each other accept for our musings here on the forum.

akbeemer said:

The argument that says if you are offended then don't look is specious and sophomoric. Firstly, the MOA forum is the place I go when I do not want to be offended. The idea of opening a seperate area where the rules are suspended and then telling us if you're offended don't look, is a bit like telling someone to don't look when a bar/gambling casino opens in the middle of a residential area.

I'm no Saint and I have crossed the line a time or two on this forum and was appropriately admonished. However, I and many other like minded members will do all that we can to see that the current posting guidlines remain in-place and will support their vigorous enforcement by the Moderators.

Telling me to look away from an area of the forum if it offends me is no different then me telling other members to go away and start your own forum if you do not like the conditions here.

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I do not believe that anyone , told anyone to look away. I believe it was merely a suggestion, so that everyone can discuss what is on their mind , with other people that have at least some similar interest...BMW motorcycles.

Think of it as a magazine stand....I never pick up a magazine on gardening & or sewing...because i am not interested in those subjects. But I do believe they should be available to those who are...

20774 said:

I certainly agree with this conceptually but I'm not sure of the scenario you are describing. I'm assuming that the interaction you describe is a face-to-face "discussion". The one thing that makes the forum so difficult for this to happen is that we aren't in the same room and can't read body language...this has been mentioned here many times. Now if two or more people already know each other and understand at another level what the other person means or knows how to read between the lines, than being on the forum works for them. But that doesn't apply to virtually all of us since we don't know much of each other accept for our musings here on the forum.

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Point taken. I am still trying to figure out how it can be done!!

I also think that the printed word can be mistaken as well. When I do some serious scholarly (?) studying, like for example, the US Constitution, I try to read the "background" material that was available to those who wrote the Constitution. I am no attorney, but I understand that this process also goes on when attorneys and judges try to figure out the meaning or extent or limits of a law. Study the meanings of the words the authors used at that time.

So . . people's words can be mis-understood and taken more badly or better than the author intended. When face-to-face as you describe, one can understand better the meaning and intent of the speaker.

jimmylee said:

Point taken. I am still trying to figure out how it can be done!!

I also think that the printed word can be mistaken as well. When I do some serious scholarly (?) studying, like for example, the US Constitution, I try to read the "background" material that was available to those who wrote the Constitution. I am no attorney, but I understand that this process also goes on when attorneys and judges try to figure out the meaning or extent or limits of a law. Study the meanings of the words the authors used at that time.

So . . people's words can be mis-understood and taken more badly or better than the author intended. When face-to-face as you describe, one can understand better the meaning and intent of the speaker.

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One of the members used to like to give this as an example....."Lets eat Grandma" or "Lets eat, Grandma".
Many of the misunderstandings here on the forum (which the Mod Team has to sift through/figure out) could probably been avoided with a smiley and the end of their post.
The best approach is to remember that if someone makes a statement you don't like or don't agree with- it's OK to just let it go 'cause it was directed somewhere else.
OM

akbeemer said:

Telling me to look away from an area of the forum if it offends me................

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Sounds like some members are advocating for a red light district on the forum.

Unfortunately, I've never seen a really nice town with a red-light district. However, I have seen towns that are red light districts. It seems, that once you've accepted bad behavior in one part of town, everyone adjusts to that standard.

Omega Man said:

One of the members used to like to give this as an example....."Lets eat Grandma" or "Lets eat, Grandma".

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Thank the heavens, mine are dead and buried!

Omega Man said:

One of the members used to like to give this as an example....."Lets eat Grandma" or "Lets eat, Grandma".

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My minor in college was linguistics, particularly ancient languages. After studying in depth things like "figures of speech" and the grammar, and also the punctuation, these sorts of things come up all the time. I spend half of my time listening to people around me (like in restaurants) using language with poor grammar, and actually not saying what they actually mean.

The way we get by is because we humans sort of "know" what the person means and we automatically compensate for wrong use of language.

However, when wrong grammar, etc., is use in places like these forums, it is hard to automatically compensate for someone you don't know, and can't see.

That's why so many times people ask for pictures.

tommcgee said:

There is no absolute right to free speech in a private club.

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That is correct and for that matter there isn't even "absolute free speech" under the Constitution. A free fire zone may sound appealing but they break down after a while. A moderator HAS TO have the ability to shut down a topic that is out of control. Ok, you lawyers out there "what constitutes out of control." As Supreme Court Justice once said, "I may not be able to define pornography, but I know it when I see it." Once you open the gate to politics, religion and some other controversial topics (they will creep in no matter what you do) you degrade the forum. This forum is about BMW motorcycles and Club events; and it should remain on topic, period.

A gun thread of mine

When we went to Sedalia for the MOA, I organized a tour of Sierra Bullets.

Just after I posted to get people interested and get RSVPs for the tour, I received a note from a Mod that my thread would be monitored and closed if it presented a problem.

It remained open and Sierra Bullets had to schedule two tours because the number of members who were interested in touring was so large.

I am against an ABSOLUTE BAN on any particular topic. I think the Mods approach to my thread was the correct one to take.

This is a diverse group and there is bound to be arguments and friction at times. It is my belief that the Mod team is well-equipped to handle individual instances of people who "cross the line" without outright censorship.

"This forum is about BMW motorcycles and Club events; and it should remain on topic, period."



Given all the listed categories in the forum, from new member, through the individual models, ride reports,etc, & so-on. What could possibly be left that is BMW & Club only ? That could /should be discussed in Campfire,...which clearly states...'for everything else'? I've said before & will again...if anyone cannot discuss any given topic in a civilized manner ? Then pass it by. But do not tell those that choose to discuss it that they cannot.

And also once again...most people {IMO} would rather discuss anything with those that share other interest.

71243 said:

"This forum is about BMW motorcycles and Club events; and it should remain on topic, period."


.

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Really, it is about us, the owners and riders, not about the bikes. The MOA is the Motorcycle Owners Association, not the Motorcycle Association. Owners are human beings. When human beings congregate, they exchange many different ideas and interests, even if the original reason for getting together may be just one single thing.
Just browse the forum and try to find a post by "Klinck" in any other thread than "Word Association" in "Campfire". Are you the one to decide that he has no place here?