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Removing Hot or Cold Nuts?

Reading the makeup of the Permatex Nickel anti-seize, it contains petroleum distillates, nickel, graphite, aluminum, lithium soap.

I am getting both products do the job well. With the nickel, instead of checking exhaust nuts every 10 years??, a yearly or every two year schedule should be followed. And should they not be spun off and on at that interval anyway?

I am guessing this comes down to personal preference?
 
It's often suggested to loosen the nuts to reapply the anti-seize on a regular basis. I guess the stuff disappears over time. So, it would seem that is should be a part of routine maintenance.

In my case, not doing that regularly was because of my first experience with my /7 and performing some maintenance before Al Gore invented the internet. I ruined one of the exhaust spigots because I didn't know squat. Fortunately, I had a local expert who welded a new spigot back on. Once those exhaust nuts were back on with anti-seize, I never touched them again for 30 years! I was just too gun shy. On my top end overhaul last year, I didn't flinch and cut them off without even trying to turn them. No way!

On my R69S overhaul 8 years ago, I took a chance and turned the exhaust nuts...they both came off without a problem. They've been on and unturned since then.

Will I try the routine maintenance on my /7 now? I'm not sure at this point...the grief I caused myself 30 years ago still lingers. :dunno
 
Well, I just might go the route of cutting the present nuts off as I don't know their history, then move on from there with a regular routine.

Thanks for your help.
 
In looking at the Technical Data Sheets found at the Permatex site, the difference between the nickel anti-seize and the copper anti-seize seems to be only in the upper temperature of the "protection". The copper goes to 1800F whereas the nickel goes to 2400F. The TDSs suggest that the nickel be used when copper contamination is to be avoided (not really our problem) and the copper is good for electrical conductivity (definitely not our problem). They both suggest they're good for exhaust manifold and system bolts. The nickel indicates that it shouldn't be used with ferrous type connections, but aluminum is not mentioned.

So, it appears that they both do the same thing...nickel works up to a higher temperature. Why not use nickel! Higher is better right?? :laugh

Nice research. I never could understand Chris Harris' hatred for the nickel. that I what I have used for years! Besides, if one simply does a re-coat every couple of years, neither should be a problem.

Chris Harris keeps saying that the nickel "hardens" up, but I notice that the copper will harden up too, if not re-applied. I am still going to use either.
 
so.... why not give Kroil a shot at this before to start with the cuttin' 'n' whackin'? If, after a few days soaking, a rap with a rubber mallet on your exhauset-wrench doesn't do the the trick. Cut.

072.jpg
 
On my '78 R100/7 the nuts are right out there in the open, so popping them off and on with a new application of anti-seize is a piece of cake. About 5 minutes time! I did my nuts towards the end of Aug. Then later, about end of Sept. I had to fix both centerstand bolts. I had to remove the nuts and it was almost effortless. Of course, that was only a month or two.

I will do at least once next summer, and we'll see then.
 
so.... why not give Kroil a shot at this before to start with the cuttin' 'n' whackin'? If, after a few days soaking, a rap with a rubber mallet on your exhauset-wrench doesn't do the the trick. Cut.

072.jpg

When using stuff like this (or PB Blaster, my favorite) if you spray some on the nut/head, and then using a Bernzomatic just to carefully apply heat to the nut, expanding it, since it is expanding, and the head isn't (hopefully) the results is a gap in the threads that will tend to "suck" in the penetrant. After heating, and shutting off the Bernzomatic, spray again at the nut/head. Hopefully you will get enough in there to keep the nuts from galding up.
 
so.... why not give Kroil a shot at this before to start with the cuttin' 'n' whackin'? If, after a few days soaking, a rap with a rubber mallet on your exhauset-wrench doesn't do the the trick. Cut.

072.jpg


I will try this first, thanks.
 
The nickel indicates that it shouldn't be used with ferrous type connections, but aluminum is not mentioned.

So, it appears that they both do the same thing...nickel works up to a higher temperature. Why not use nickel! Higher is better right?? :laugh

I also looked up the MSDS sheets for all three kinds that Permatex sells. I am wondering if the one that Chris Harris hated was the one that is primarily the aluminum one rather than the nickel one?

I think the "silver" that I have (I would have to go out to my -2 Deg. garage to check and there is NO WAY I am doing than now!) is the cheaper aluminum one rather than the other two.

What I noticed too, is that the nickel is recommended where copper would somehow interfere with use. It appears that Nickel would be the best all around.
 
When using stuff like this (or PB Blaster, my favorite) if you spray some on the nut/head, and then using a Bernzomatic just to carefully apply heat to the nut, expanding it, since it is expanding, and the head isn't (hopefully) the results is a gap in the threads that will tend to "suck" in the penetrant. After heating, and shutting off the Bernzomatic, spray again at the nut/head. Hopefully you will get enough in there to keep the nuts from galding up.

Would suggest one alteration to the above. I would suggest heating the entire structure nice an warm. Not hot. You don't want to flash the solvent from the penetrant. Apply the penetrant after the parts are heated. Any air that is within the spaces between the threads, (small spaces and very tiny amounts of air) will expand and in doing so, will find a way out through the porous oxide. When you hit the warm metal with the cold penetrating oil, it will all contract, including the tiny amount of air and will suck the oil into fill the void.
 
As I had suspected. I went out to my frigid cold garage, and looked at my "silver" anti-seize.

Mine is the silver aluminum type not the nickel type. I have used it for 40 years (still have original bottle) with no trouble but not necessarily on exhaust items. But, since I took the exhaust nuts off pretty regularly, no problem there either.

I think that the Nickel type, like the Copper type is specialized enough that neither are sold at the regular run-of-the-mill auto stores. I did find the copper at NAPA.

I am also guessing that the "silver" type that Chris Harris goes ballistic about is probably the aluminum type (like mine), not the nickel type.

In any case, Nickel seem to be the best for exhaust nuts, and Copper next in line with the aluminum last. Al three work, but Nickel has the highest temp resistance.

I also have suggested that when any of them are just sitting there in the can, they tend to dry out. A little oil (I use Marvel Mystery) added helps soften and mixes it up. According to all three MSDS sheets, all have the same liquid body - that of mineral oil.
 
Interesting that MotoBins sells part 95899 " Copper Slip Grease" with no mention of exhaust nut use.

95899.jpg


but they also sell the "OPTIMOL TA ANTI SEIZE PASTE (BMW SPECIFIED) FOR EXHAUST NUTS ETC"

95805.jpg


I have both on hand and the recommended stuff for exhaust nuts is silver in colour. It's re-packaged and re-labeled without the ingredient list so not sure what is in it. I just bought these products recently but for more than ten years now I've been using a can of Mopar Anti Sieze which is a high temp nickel based product I believe. I've never had a stitch of trouble with it other than the mess it makes if you get it on anything but your target. :laugh Chris Harris has strong opinions but remember, this is the internet and so does everyone else. I reckon any high temperature rated anti seize should do the job as long as you take them off once in a while, clean the threads and replenish the anti seize of your choice.
 
I have no idea if the stuff I quit using long ago was Aluminum or Nickel. Interesting. I guess like many, the copper works well for me (and I'm used to using copper on head gaskets and such) that I "stick" with it!
 
In my experience the standard (silver/gray) has worked well. When I do the refresh it appears that the compound Is dried Out & powdery instead of being nice & greasy. My stance is to change it every few years. YMMV

As for penetrating oil, My take is that most times we are in a hurry & don't give it sufficient time to do it's job. It has been suggested that a mix of 50/50 ATF/acetone works quite well for a penetrant.

I plan ahead for the removal on a running bike by spraying front & back of the nuts (cold then hot) prior to & after good warm up rides daily/nightly for a week or so. Carefully turning the wrench back & forth just a few degrees at a time (as though using a tap or die) both before (cold) & hot (after) each ride seems to do the job helping the penetrant go further into the threads . The aerosol products with straw work really well for this.

I'm not comfortable using a flaming torch on parts wet with oil below my gas tank while in my garage.
 
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I'm not comfortable using a flaming torch on parts wet with oil below my gas tank while in my garage.

Don't forget that there are two different silver colors, aluminum and nickel. To me both work when replaced once every year or so, but as Kurt found out, the nickel is best because of its high temp resistance.

Also, about the flame. I take an ordinary bath towel, and soak in water, and throw over the bike (or whatever) to isolate the area where I want to apply heat with a propane, and the propane outfits usually have a smaller pinpoint nozzle. Application of penetrating oil and application of heat several time (take time in between) to start the expand/shrink/expand scene will really help to suck that penetrating oil into the threads. Even do it after you get the nut broken loose to protect the aluminum from catching and gaulding on further rotation.
 
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