Why recalls anyway?

Received a recall notice in the mail today on my '03 pick-up truck, something about a left side tie-rod end needing inspection and or replacement. I purchased the truck new and have done some front end work myself but this is no big deal. The truck has been good and I like it....and I realize that the truck brand did not make the tie-rod end in question and that it may or may not be bad. I also realize that a high mileage vs high/heavy usage (snow-plowing) will effect even the best parts.
While I don't think that the manufactures like a recall as it costs them money, I'm happy they do it.
OM

I am about to retire from 36+ years in the "Automotive Industry" working for some of the largest original equipment component suppliers in the world.
Some thoughts:

All reliability and durability testing on parts and components is done using an accelerated method, simulating a certain life or number of duty cycles specified by the vehicle manufacturer and the parts manufacturer. There is now way, this testing will be able to simulate operation under all possible conditions and environmental influences. In addition, the vehilce operator will be the biggest unknown. Example: There are thousands of people out there who drive their automatic transmission equipped vehicle witht he right foot on the gas pedal and the left foot on the brake pedal AT THE SAME TIME. And probably quite a good amount of people who rest their right hand on the shift lever of their manual transmission equipped car, while they are driving.

Vehicle or application testing can not be that extensive. Because of the short product development cycles that are required for competitive reasons today, final, production level vehicles are not available until very shortly before start of sale to the public. Vehicle testing has to continue after the first vehicles have already supplied to the public.

Certain models in a manufacturers line-up will be used as test-beds for new technology. Funny enough, these are most times more expensive models and those that are deemed to be luxury items that are not usually required to be reliable on a daily basis. Example: GM's Chevrolet Corvette - no matter what the General tries to tell you.

Motorcycles sort of fall into this category, as they are generally perceived as recreational vehicles - surprise - and owners usually tolerate down times of a week at a time.

Finally: Quality ratings that are based on owner feedback are hardly worth the paper they are printed on. Imagine this: You are buying a luxury vehicle. You pick something that does not quite have the image and the "impress your neighbors" factor as a Mercedes Benz or BMW. You constantly have to justify your purchase against the "ribbing" of your peers. Now JDPowers calls you for your opinion about your Lexus. Will you say anything negative???

EMSimon said:

I am about to retire from 36+ years in the "Automotive Industry" working for some of the largest original equipment component suppliers in the world.
Some thoughts:

<snip>

Finally: Quality ratings that are based on owner feedback are hardly worth the paper they are printed on. Imagine this: You are buying a luxury vehicle. You pick something that does not quite have the image and the "impress your neighbors" factor as a Mercedes Benz or BMW. You constantly have to justify your purchase against the "ribbing" of your peers. Now JDPowers calls you for your opinion about your Lexus. Will you say anything negative???

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Maybe, if your final drive just shot craps, or your fuel pump piddled all over your leg.

My experience with BMW is that they are very random with recalls. My 85 K100 had many parts replaced at no charge to me, they even found a way to warranty the unreliable speedo when the bike was 7-8 years old. I also had good luck with BMW automobiles having items corrected out of warranty. I dunno why the R1200 fuel strips, fuel pumps and final drives aren't getting their attention.

I have owned both Toyota and Honda cars and both had critical parts die young (transmission and wheel bearings) with no satisfaction from either manufacturer.

My personal philosophy for vehicles is to buy ones I really like so that if they screw up I am at least spending the money on a machine I love. My Honda and Toyota were about as exciting as a refrigerator, so when they screwed up there was no redeeming values to these cars.

Anyname said:

My experience with BMW is that they are very random with recalls.

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A recall is performed only when there is a danger of a failure potentially resulting in an accident. While some recalls are initiated voluntarily by the manufacturer, most of them are mandated by the NTSB. Manufacturers usually try to avoid recalls as they are expensive (all parts and components are being changed/repaired, not only those showing a failure) and they are not good for the image.
All other failures are usually addressed by parts or component replacement or repairs as called out in "service bulletins".

Guess I am just one of the luckiest guys on the planet. In 50+ years of owning and driving cars and motorcycles, I have never had a lemon vehicle. Owned most American made cars plus Hondas, Toyotas, Audis and VWs of all models. Owned most Japanese brand motorcycles and now a BMW. Best cars I have ever owned, in terms of reliability and low maintenance, were/are Fords (way better, IMO, than either Hondas or Toyotas), and best m/c's I have ever owned, in terms of reliability and low maintenance, were Hondas, Yamahas and Kawasakis. Now, having said that, I have no regrets at all about my current BMW, it just is not the equal of the Japanese bikes in the reliability/maintenance department. If I ever buy another new vehicle and reliability/maintainability is the main criterion, the car will be another Ford, the m/c will be another Honda.

I know it's morphed into any recall, so here goes nothing. I bought a new redesigned F-150 in '04, loved it, got great mileage, great hauler, basically work truck.

Couple years later brother-in-law says there's a problem with three valve heads blowing spark plugs through the hoods. Go figure, I apparently lucked out by getting the two valve 4.6 v8, that had more plug threads in the head. Ya just never know until a few hundred million miles are racked up to expose any flaws.

BMW will sometimes use a service bulletin in lieu of a voluntary recall. If I recall correctly the problem with and subsequent replacement of the EWS ring on some Hexheads was done thru a service bulletin. No letter was sent but when an affected model showed up in a shop for any reason they replaced the EWS ring. It is a way of not drawing attention to a problem but still addressing it in less direct way.

akbeemer said:

BMW will sometimes use a service bulletin in lieu of a voluntary recall. If I recall correctly the problem with and subsequent replacement of the EWS ring on some Hexheads was done thru a service bulletin. No letter was sent but when an affected model showed up in a shop for any reason they replaced the EWS ring. It is a way of not drawing attention to a problem but still addressing it in less direct way.

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Only problem with that methodology is that I know of several BMW guys whose EWS rings failed while on long trips. That meant they got inconveniently stranded first - bike ended up at some BMW dealer later, and only at that time did they learn their VIN indicated a problem.

Not a good scenario, when BMW knew there were X number of bad units in circulation. This is where casting the 'big net' of a recall would have done the greater good.

Reliability and reputation are close cousins.

A fundamental problem, the assembly line quota.

In my career, I worked for several dealerships that carried well known construction equipment. We had something called "field modifications" or, oops. Since most of this equipment was FBO and way too expensive to bring into the dealership, we went out and made the changes. Like motor vehicles, they were safety based owing to the dreaded thought of an injury and the subsequent litigation. I don't recall a time I did a field mod based on performance or over all reliability.

In one situation, the assembly line decided to install a nut and bolt in the upright of a loader and allowed the remaining threads to rub on the tilt hoses. It was a simple enough repair, turn the nut and bolt around and the hose had adequate clearance. During this field mod campaign, I was told the gang on the assembly line did it that way because the line moved to quickly for them to do it the way the drawings required.

The assembly line, moved every twelve minutes, machine finished or not at that station. One thing I learned, it doesn't matter the manufacturer, they all do the same thing, push crap out the door and deal with the problems later.

In Canada, there are no recalls on construction equipment for road worthiness. Imagine an 18 ton motor grader coming at you at 28 kmh and it has a bad tie rod. The manufacturers will call the accident a result of human stupidity, until it happens several times and there are a ton of lawsuits.

Ah yes, construction equipment. Frequently with a master switch, then the "normal" key operation. There was a large recall to add a shield over the solenoid on the starters. Due to the configuration, the contacts were open to starting the machine with a screwdriver. A local guy used the screwdriver to start the shovel-dozer one morning, the bucket lever was in curl, the machine started and when the arms came together, it popped his head like a mellon. There were many recalls to add a cover to this part of the starters.
OM

greenwald said:

Only problem with that methodology is that I know of several BMW guys whose EWS rings failed while on long trips. That meant they got inconveniently stranded first - bike ended up at some BMW dealer later, and only at that time did they learn their VIN indicated a problem.

Not a good scenario, when BMW knew there were X number of bad units in circulation. This is where casting the 'big net' of a recall would have done the greater good.

Reliability and reputation are close cousins.

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There will be no recall, if the issue is not safety related. Read all the recall notices. There is always a description of a safety issue as a result of a possible failure. That's just how it works. There are certain procedures the manufacturer must follow to satisfy the NTSB with a recall campaign. This is not done just to address a technical issue. Even if it happens to 98% of all vehicles.

Good to understand what a recall actually is.

In the USA recalls can be legally mandated by the federal government for TWO reasons
Safety concern
Vehicle pollutes beyond requirements

This leaves lots of other things to the manufacturers' discretion and leads also to debates as to what safety is. For example as a rider with >25 years riding without a fuel gauge, I find it amusing that some consider failed fuel strips a safety concern ... and a recall hasn't happened yet, has it?

It's also good to recognize that in almost all instances the owner will pay for design/manufacturing defects outside the two categories listed, as the owner effectively buys the original warranty and of course clearly pays for extensions. It's the same thing as buying insurance.

The instances where not-required fixes are done free via manufacturer good will are rare.

That's life in the fast lane.

EMSimon said:

There will be no recall, if the issue is not safety related. Read all the recall notices. There is always a description of a safety issue as a result of a possible failure. That's just how it works. There are certain procedures the manufacturer must follow to satisfy the NTSB with a recall campaign. This is not done just to address a technical issue. Even if it happens to 98% of all vehicles.

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Thanks - makes sense.

Don't like it, but makes sense.

Omega Man said:

Ah yes, construction equipment. Frequently with a master switch, then the "normal" key operation. There was a large recall to add a shield over the solenoid on the starters. Due to the configuration, the contacts were open to starting the machine with a screwdriver. A local guy used the screwdriver to start the shovel-dozer one morning, the bucket lever was in curl, the machine started and when the arms came together, it popped his head like a mellon. There were many recalls to add a cover to this part of the starters.
OM

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Really now?

This is beyond what we needed to know!

Omega Man said:

Ah yes, construction equipment. Frequently with a master switch, then the "normal" key operation. There was a large recall to add a shield over the solenoid on the starters. Due to the configuration, the contacts were open to starting the machine with a screwdriver. A local guy used the screwdriver to start the shovel-dozer one morning, the bucket lever was in curl, the machine started and when the arms came together, it popped his head like a mellon. There were many recalls to add a cover to this part of the starters.
OM

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Yet more proof that some behaviors are their own punishment.

jimmylee said:

Really now?

This is beyond what we needed to know!

Click to expand...

akbeemer said:

Yet more proof that some behaviors are their own punishment.

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Well a number of things have gone on here that resulted in the operators death.
1) Accessing the starter has always been a way to start something. (we are not too far from me explaining how to hot-wire a car)
2) A guard over the starter from the factory would have at least made this practice much harder.
3) In the old "familiarity breeds contempt" adage the operator may have done this hundreds of times.
4) Someone left the bucket in the "curl" position.
5) Someone has in their sig line "experience is something you get just after you need it"
6) Luck has run out.
7) I don't think the operator set off to crush his own skull.
Frequently when guards are added there is no visual to reinforce the consequences.
The only people that don't make mistakes are the ones that do nothing.
OM

Uhmm, I meant to say in my experience, safety was the only issue for a recall.

Omega Man said:

Well a number of things have gone on here that resulted in the operators death.
1) Accessing the starter has always been a way to start something. (we are not too far from me explaining how to hot-wire a car)
2) A guard over the starter from the factory would have at least made this practice much harder.
3) In the old "familiarity breeds contempt" adage the operator may have done this hundreds of times.
4) Someone left the bucket in the "curl" position.
5) Someone has in their sig line "experience is something you get just after you need it"
6) Luck has run out.
7) I don't think the operator set off to crush his own skull.
Frequently when guards are added there is no visual to reinforce the consequences.
The only people that don't make mistakes are the ones that do nothing.
OM

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Even though the manufacturers tried, they couldn't predict stupid. I even went out to recover an excavator the operator drowned himself and the machine in while breaking a beaver dam, down stream of the dam. How do you put a warning label on that? You can't put a recall notice on every D8N because they weren't made to go ice fishing.....................

What I was trying to add was perspective that regardless of the type of machine, the only experience I have ever had with recalls is safety related.

dieselyoda said:

Even though the manufacturers tried, they couldn't predict stupid. I even went out to recover an excavator the operator drowned himself and the machine in while breaking a beaver dam, down stream of the dam. How do you put a warning label on that? You can't put a recall notice on every D8N because they weren't made to go ice fishing.....................

What I was trying to add was perspective that regardless of the type of machine, the only experience I have ever had with recalls is safety related.

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While working in a nationally known plastics manufacturer, the company was obsessed (for political reasons) to eliminate all situations that could cause accidents. They went to extreme measures, only to find out that people would just circumvent in some new way!

But ... the company at least LOOKED like it cared for people, but the practice gave them lots of protection from government intrusion, and law suits!

Also, my brother was a pretty high "official" in the now defunct Hoover company (sweepers and many other electric appliances) and he left the company after many years because to him, they really didn't care about safety (either in the manufacturing plant, or in the products).