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Transport Canada and BMW issued a recall on multiple models
- Thread starter mika
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greenwald
New member
Yes, but you're ignoring that they function as a pair to distribute weight, are separated by approx. 6' and do not lean around curves or turns (hence, no sidewall tread pattern needed).
Apples and oranges when compared to the 'drive wheel' of a motorcycle, and the lateral forces that act upon it.
mika
Still Wondering
Okay I surrender, but I still don't agree with you the comparison of single sided swing arms are an apples and oranges comparison. Do a bit more reading on suspension design for both and you will see things differently in comparing automotive and standard single sided swingarm applications. They may be different varieties of apples but definitely both apples with nary an orange in the peck.
While I have no difficulties with a well designed and maintained chain drive single sided swingarm I am less sanguine about newer single sided swingarms because of the increases in heat issues by moving the final drive unit into the wheel hub that compound the forces acting on and potentially leading to failure of current designs when compared to old shaft drive designs. Increases in horsepower of current engines over those of the dual arm days would seem to potentially further compound the design challenge.
I don't know if that makes the comparison apples and oranges and I don't really care. What I wonder about is the balance between these additional issues in this setting, how engineers have accounted for them in their designs and what I need to do as the chief mechanic and pilot of my Roadster.
All that said I end up back wondering why we are debating single sided swingarm design in a thread about a recall dealing with fuel issues in BMWs with various final drive designs. I haven't paid much attention to this issue and would like to learn more about it. I keep thinking about my next bike and some of the models in the recall are of interest. Recalls and debates like this make the Suzuki 400SM down the alley from me look better and better.
While I have no difficulties with a well designed and maintained chain drive single sided swingarm I am less sanguine about newer single sided swingarms because of the increases in heat issues by moving the final drive unit into the wheel hub that compound the forces acting on and potentially leading to failure of current designs when compared to old shaft drive designs. Increases in horsepower of current engines over those of the dual arm days would seem to potentially further compound the design challenge.
I don't know if that makes the comparison apples and oranges and I don't really care. What I wonder about is the balance between these additional issues in this setting, how engineers have accounted for them in their designs and what I need to do as the chief mechanic and pilot of my Roadster.
All that said I end up back wondering why we are debating single sided swingarm design in a thread about a recall dealing with fuel issues in BMWs with various final drive designs. I haven't paid much attention to this issue and would like to learn more about it. I keep thinking about my next bike and some of the models in the recall are of interest. Recalls and debates like this make the Suzuki 400SM down the alley from me look better and better.
ponch1
Ponch
Excellent point. Just because you can build a more complex motorcycle doesn't necessarily mean you should.
That's a lesson that BMW will likely never learn, as they have swapped reliability for technological complexity.
We thought we 'needed' single-sided swing arms to the rear wheel - to save weight, they told us. Instead, the torque of that fad now eats final drives (crown bearings, seals .... whatever) for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Engineering logic supports (no pun intended) that a drive wheel be braced equally on both sides. Ah, but what of progress......!
Different drive modes to choose from (though most riders can't even tell the difference) - that used to be more easily accomplished by the rider himself/herself making adjustments to clutch/throttle/brakes to fine-tune the performance of the bike in different scenarios. Ah, but what of progress............!
Fuel strips instead of floats, rear shocks that have a replacement cost in the thousands, headlamps that are incredibly difficult to service, an 'electrical nervous system' (canBus) costing more than 4 sets of tires from my Sonata to entirely replace (beware of mice!) ............... the list goes on and on. Ah .............. progress.
Rubbish. The japanese make some technologically advanced bikes and don't have as many problems. They are more apt to deal with issues when they come up too.
greenwald
New member
Morning mika. Hope weather by you better than here - in the midst of being clobbered by 4-8 inches of wet snow as we speak.
No need to 'surrender' - you were never under attack, at least not by me. Not unusual for threads to morph into multiple topics of discussion as they run there course. The same has happened to me on threads I've authored. And strong opinions on BMW's infamous FD's always lurking, myself included.
I got off my soapbox eight postings ago, but way too much Kool-Aid currently in circulation. My apologies and hopefully now back to fuel system commentary.
Just a thought here...
No one accuses Siemens as the design culprit here. Seems to me it's not a design by BMW, rather an application of a Siemens product. Yes, the mothership sources the assembly, but how much design input do they have? Someone signs off on use and the end result is a bad decision somewhere along the line and an issue for the end user...us.
We have 5 of the Siemens fuel pump assy's ( three different R's and two K's)...and yes, three have crack issues and have the BBY ring, A preventive measure as none were leaking...yet.
A stretch comparison comes to mind with regards to the catastrophic failure of the Challenger's solid rocket boosters designed and built by Thiokol.
In the root cause investigation this quote sticks out to me.
" There was a fundamental design flaw in the joint that engineers had grown accustomed to and had learned to live with"
How often does this occur in every manufacturers/assemblers process? Risk Management is a large piece of every large company and ultimately seems to be the end user of any manufacturers responsibility...even though Thiokol in my comparison was the responsible party in the loss of life and the shuttle.
I hope the Canada recall will move south...It seems it needs all the reporting to NHTSA we can provide.
No one accuses Siemens as the design culprit here. Seems to me it's not a design by BMW, rather an application of a Siemens product. Yes, the mothership sources the assembly, but how much design input do they have? Someone signs off on use and the end result is a bad decision somewhere along the line and an issue for the end user...us.
We have 5 of the Siemens fuel pump assy's ( three different R's and two K's)...and yes, three have crack issues and have the BBY ring, A preventive measure as none were leaking...yet.
A stretch comparison comes to mind with regards to the catastrophic failure of the Challenger's solid rocket boosters designed and built by Thiokol.
In the root cause investigation this quote sticks out to me.
" There was a fundamental design flaw in the joint that engineers had grown accustomed to and had learned to live with"
How often does this occur in every manufacturers/assemblers process? Risk Management is a large piece of every large company and ultimately seems to be the end user of any manufacturers responsibility...even though Thiokol in my comparison was the responsible party in the loss of life and the shuttle.
I hope the Canada recall will move south...It seems it needs all the reporting to NHTSA we can provide.
Who said Ford Pinto fuel tanks? We saved a buck a piece on 'dose.
I had two HS buds with Pintos...was in both as the back end crumpled in crashes...luckily still here! How about cruise control's on F-150 trucks and fires...the list could go on I am sure.
A
Arte Johns son
Guest
From Wikipedia:
"The Pinto's legacy was affected by media controversy and legal cases surrounding the safety of its gas tank design, a recall of the car in 1978, and a later study examining actual incident data that concluded the Pinto was as safe as, or safer than, other cars in its class.[4]"
http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/The_Myth_of_the_Ford_Pinto_Case.pdf
Since none of us have actual incident data regarding FD or fuel leaks on the 1200 series, perhaps there might be a lesson here.
Probably not…
John
It will be very interesting to see how BMW responds to the Canadian Recall Dilemma. They could initiate a voluntary recall in the states. They could tell us to come to the dealership for a scheduled fix and drink some coffee while they show us the new models and discuss the low finance rates. Or, they can do the same thing they have done regarding other issues and pretend the problem does not exist and hope it will go away. It will be very interesting to see which path they take.
It will also be interesting to see what NHTSA does. I don't know how NHTSA can avoid doing the same as Canada. If I were BMW, I would beat NHTSA to the draw, announce a voluntary recall and start brewing some coffee.
E.
It will also be interesting to see what NHTSA does. I don't know how NHTSA can avoid doing the same as Canada. If I were BMW, I would beat NHTSA to the draw, announce a voluntary recall and start brewing some coffee.
E.
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mika
Still Wondering
Purely from an observational perspective, Transport Canad/BMW recalls appear to be beta tests for how BMW will manage recalls in the US then the EU. In crude terms the US market has been about 9-10 times that of the Canadian and in tern the EU as a whole about 7 times the size of the US. For large recalls Transport Canada and BMW Canada seem to be doing the beta leg work for how to roll these large recalls out of late.
ka5ysy
2011 R1200RT
This must be an oil thread in disguise ...
Thinking of vehicle engineering FUBAR's, anybody here remember the venerable Corvair, "Unsafe at any speed" ??? Still a few around in good condition. There is even a turbo version locally that is beautiful.
The Challenger comment is a good point. What the problem resolved itself to was that the NASA program managers were so pushed on deadlines for launch that they ignored specific warnings of Thiokol engineers that they had no data for O-Ring performance at the temperature encountered, and at least one engineer there refused to sign the launch recommendation. Richard Feynman vindicated his judgment.
I have to wonder if there is a bit of that going on at BMW for some of their issues. Production deadlines and management pressure can be a very powerful lever on the situation at times.
All that said, I love my RT, and I never had any problem with the R1200R (2007) fuel strip, or final drive, and so far no fuel ring issues on the RT.
Thinking of vehicle engineering FUBAR's, anybody here remember the venerable Corvair, "Unsafe at any speed" ??? Still a few around in good condition. There is even a turbo version locally that is beautiful.
The Challenger comment is a good point. What the problem resolved itself to was that the NASA program managers were so pushed on deadlines for launch that they ignored specific warnings of Thiokol engineers that they had no data for O-Ring performance at the temperature encountered, and at least one engineer there refused to sign the launch recommendation. Richard Feynman vindicated his judgment.
I have to wonder if there is a bit of that going on at BMW for some of their issues. Production deadlines and management pressure can be a very powerful lever on the situation at times.
All that said, I love my RT, and I never had any problem with the R1200R (2007) fuel strip, or final drive, and so far no fuel ring issues on the RT.
lkchris
Active member
Boy, do you not get it!
Germany is the world leader of the automotive industry and its mission is indeed the cutting edge.
Good to get the notion, too, that if something like ABS or traction control exists, society today will find you liable when you fail to include it on your motorcycles.
No, "nostalgia" designs lead to bankruptcy like GM and Chrysler. The 1950s are over, and that's good.
As for the fuel pump, I 'd speculate BMW's spec to the supplier was output and weight and size and not much more ... surely not materials.
Ikchris--I agree fully with your thoughts on BMW's inputs on the pump design. Very common for an OEM to rely on a component supplier's expertise and only provide interface dimensions and performance requirements. The supplier would submit design intent articles on which the OEM would verify dimenstions and do the performance testing. The performance testing would be spelled out in advance with a test spec.
greenwald
New member
I always smile at your retorts Kent - breaks up a winter's monotony.
But you're draining the world's supply of Kool-Aid dangerously low.
Happy Holidays and enjoy your warm clime.
I think you're missing the most important parameter of a modern day RFP: product Cost.
Welcome to the forum!
Gary
deilenberger
A bozo on the bus
Thread closed at OP's request.
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