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Thread: Starter or Battery 2004 R1150RT

  1. #166
    Alps Adventurer GlobalRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    It is looking like a 7 year-old PC680 has been revived.
    RB
    At what rate was that battery discharged at and was a load test performed at say 1/2 the CCA rating of the battery?

  2. #167
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Hi Alex, I don't know what rate he used but asked him and am waiting to hear. Based on the numbers and some advice I'd given him it looks like his rate was around 4.2 amps. That is in the neighborhood of the 3 hour discharge rate. A new battery would deliver about 15.5 AH.

    I don't believe he has done a 1/2 CCA test.

    Still, he has had a good improvement in battery capacity. RB



    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    Below is a chart showing five successive discharge times for a PC680 in an Oilhead (Reported Here). The battery is 7 years old and was only measuring 12.5 volts at the start of the discharge sequence. There was a significant increase in capacity (discharge time lengthened) between the 1st and 2nd discharges and again between the 4th and 5th discharges.

    You can see at the 150 minute mark the 5th discharge extended nicely with the result that the time to 10.25 V was 160 minutes on the 1st cycle, 180 on the second and nearly 210 minutes on the 5th discharge cycle. Those numbers suggest an initial state of 75% charged, which is consistent with the 12.5V at the start of discharge 1.

    The beginning voltage has also been increased, from 12.5V to about 12.9V.

    It is looking like a 7 year-old PC680 has been revived.
    RB


  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    Hi Alex, I don't know what rate he used but asked him and am waiting to hear. Based on the numbers and some advice I'd given him it looks like his rate was around 4.2 amps. That is in the neighborhood of the 3 hour discharge rate. A new battery would deliver about 15.5 AH.

    I don't believe he has done a 1/2 CCA test.

    Still, he has had a good improvement in battery capacity. RB
    Battery manufacturers will always state the C-rate that the capacity was obtained.

    We also got better numbers after a few charge-discharge cycles, but when testing the capacity and CCA of the battery, it was never close to new performance. It it is, the battery wasn't that damaged in the first place.

    For our amp-hour test we used a Programma Torkel 860 which maintains a constant current drain (varying load as the voltage drops) and a PPI for the load test.

  4. #169
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    You're right that he'd gain a better gauge of his battery's health by adding a load test.

    On the other hand, since Oilheads do undercharge the PC680, and since the 680 then exhibits a bigger starting voltage dip, which has now been seen in several cases, that dip leading to slow, uneven starting, the 4/5 cycle discharge has value.

    The winter here was crappy so I kept an eye on my PC680 battery's SOC regularly to see how my own reconditioning was working out. Yesterday I made a cold start after a week of sitting and logged it with the 911. It took 1.1 seconds mid-detent on the Fast Idle Lever, no throttle.
    RB

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    On the other hand, since Oilheads do undercharge the PC680...
    RB
    Why not install another voltage regulator with the correct V setting?

    They are readily available. For example: 14.1V, 14.2V, 14.4V, 14.5V and 14.8V. I have a Bosch sheet listing them.

  6. #171
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    I want to be unique, just like everybody else.

  7. #172
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalRider View Post
    Why not install another voltage regulator with the correct V setting?

    They are readily available. For example: 14.1V, 14.2V, 14.4V, 14.5V and 14.8V. I have a Bosch sheet listing them.
    Here's the Bosch Part Number 0 123 105 003 for the internal voltage regulator. As you know, I just added a diode to mine for the sake of time. There are different form factors and slip ring sizes and I couldn't work out which one was a perfect form factor match. Hella makes one that wasn't available here.

    Can you send me a link to the sheet with specifications? It may be possible to fit one directly, though it is a bear of a job to get the alternator out.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    There are different form factors and slip ring sizes...
    Yes, those are listed as well as T.C.

    Its on a PDF I have. PM me your e-mail.

  9. #174
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlobalRider View Post
    Yes, those are listed as well as T.C.

    Its on a PDF I have. PM me your e-mail.
    PM Sent, thank you. RB

  10. #175
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    A diode is less than $1
    My mod has worked for years.
    '
    Ufda happens..........

    It's all about the details.

  11. #176
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt
    August 8, 2013
    When I tested an R1200 GSW the other day, one of the improvements is that cold the bike seemed to start like, er, er, vroom. My 04RT is more like er, er er, er, er, er, vroom.
    ...
    bike runs great except the slow first-start-of-the-day. I've GS-911ed all the sensors, looked at the LC-1 AFR charts, nothing seem to be wrong and the Motronic seems to be computing reasonable first injection times.
    ...
    Any thoughts in how to get my bike to start faster 1st time in the morning? Er, Er Vroom!
    August 24, 2015
    Two years later, my '04 R1150RT (dual spark) now starts in about 1 second after sitting overnight and in about half to three-quarters of a second once the engine has warmed up (>40C). The final pieces of the puzzle were wiring the stick coils through a relay, directly to the battery (last month); and replacing the starter (last week). I’ve made it to Er, Er, Vroom!

    Since it seems I'm at the end of this project finally and have learned a lot about what it takes to get the dual-spark 1150 to start quickly, I want to summarize the various improvements and repairs that I’ve made to reach the present state.

    1) The Motronic, injectors and stick coils are voltage sensitive and the Motronic MA 2.4 doesn't fully compensate for low voltage. I experimented a lot by powering the electronics separately and the bike always started well when I did. A good battery, good starter and properly powered stick coils are all key.

    --Odyssey PC-680: My battery had been chronically undercharged due to short trips, the 1150RT's alternator being a lower voltage than the PC680's spec, and my use of a Battery Tender Jr. with low voltage output. The battery was successfully rejuvenated by discharging and recharging 5 times, the BT Jr. was replaced with an AGM charger and I boosted the alternator output with the addition of an internal diode. I also modified the Kisan Signal Minder Flasher so that there was no key-off current drain on the battery.

    --The stick coils were powered from the key switch and its contact resistance seems to have increased over the years. Later model dual-spark bikes power the stick coils with their own relay, called Load Relay II. Recently I added a relay and rewired the stick-coils (and while I was at it the secondary coil too) directly to +12V through the relay. It improved starting, idling quality and (surprisingly) top-end smoothness.

    --The planetary gear cover inside my starter had fallen onto the armature a couple times causing serious internal arcing. I replaced the cover and the starter seemed fine but after fixing everything else in this summary, I got to the point where some starts were still slow and I knew it was related to the starting dip in the +12V. It seemed there must be excessive draw from the starter some of the time, causing the voltage dip and upsetting the Motronic, injectors and coils. After replacing it the motor spins faster, and quieter during starting and the bike starts very quickly whether cold or hot.

    —To idle well in cold weather immediately after starting, the alternator needs to start charging the battery ASAP. I noticed from GS-911 logs that the alternator sometimes would take up to half a minute to start charging the battery. During that time, voltage at the injectors could be less than 12 volts, resulting in a lean, rough idle. This is caused by a much slower injector turn-on time at the lower voltage. The alternator starting current is supplied by the Batt/Alt bulb. By replacing the stock 1.7W annunciator bulb in Batt/Alt with the 3W bulb from the High Beam annunciator, the alternator always starts immediately and cold-idle is smoother.

    2) All 4 spark plugs need to fire well for a quick start.

    --Both stick coils were found to be sub-par and although the bike ran well, replacing them improved starting and idling quality, as well as top-end smoothness.

    --The lower plugs seem to foul easily and although I didn't notice it while riding, fresh lower plugs made a difference to starting and cold idling. I've gone up in the heat range on the lower plugs to try and keep them cleaner.

    3) The Hot Idle Speed, TPS and Fast Idle Lever need to be adjusted correctly for best starting.

    —The BMW procedure for setting the Fast Idle Lever results in the throttle being opened about 4 degrees when the Fast Idle Lever is in the mid-detent position. Mine was at about 1.92 degrees, and many I’ve seen in GS-911 logs are lower, some as low as 0.64 degrees. Although the bike will start with that little throttle, 3-4 degrees open leads to faster starting. The adjuster for the fast idle lever ran to the end of the threads at a little over 2 degrees so a spacer was manufactured to sit in the bottom of the ferrule & adjuster to add adjustment range. After trial and error, 3-3.5 degrees when the Lever is in the mid-dent leads to a fast start but not too high a warm-up idle speed.

    —Oddly, but confirmed on several bikes, if the Hot Idle Speed is set above 1100 RPM, the cold-start enrichment with the Fast Idle Lever OFF is too lean. This is because there is more air entering than expected at closed throttle while Open Loop. By reducing Hot Idle to 1100 RPM, the bike’s Cold Start AFR is slightly richer.

    —TPS: Although a longer topic, I realized along the way that the closed throttle voltage expected by the Motronic is 340 mV. It was also discovered that the infamous zero=zero procedure results in the throttle being opened too far. The correct zero degree voltage is 250 mV.

    Summary
    Although everything on the list above contributed improvement, I found the most important were: 1) a fully charged, properly conditioned battery; 2) a starter that didn’t glitch the battery voltage badly, 3) separately powered stick coils and 4) good spark plugs. Although many in the forum helped I want to especially thank DR, GS Addict and terryofperry who provided valuable advice on debugging, starters and AGM batteries.

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