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Thread: Helmets are being questioned??

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRider View Post
    but being stupid should not be illegal
    So would you also be against seatbelt laws?

    The higher injury rate that is thrust on our medical system and our insurance companies is not only paid for by the "stupid". The added risk is added to ALL our premiums and taxes.

    Left to their own devices, the human race has an incredible ability to make the wrong decisions. Just check out You Tube sometime! Especially anything involving young men and wheels!!!


    Some times it takes laws to eventually overcome that "culture" effect that you speak of.

    Full face helmets, neck braces, gloves and firesuits would not be standard in all forms of auto racing today, if regulations had not been passed by all the sanctioning bodies.



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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRider View Post
    I think Argent Brick makes a cogent point; should "government" protect us from ourselves when we choose to do things that carry greater risks to ourselves but not to others? His vote is no, and I think I would second that. (Both of us wear helmets and ATGATT and would do so in states where helmets are not required.) We agree that wearing anything less is stupid, but being stupid should not be illegal - as opposed to riding drunk or serious speeding, etc. which DO endanger others.

    As I've said before, it is the "culture" of your riding friends that tends to determine how you dress for a ride. Thankfully, BMW folk tend to believe in both good helmets and gear. Newcomers to the ranks get the message loud and clear (as they do with other groups.)

    If you want a long riding career, I think the three essentials are: attitude, training/practice, and gear.
    Just because a person claims to be responsible doesn't mean that their opinion on granting others the right to be irresponsible carries any greater weight. In the end, the irresponsible biker is highly likely to be the disabled person of limited capacity requiring public assistance. You live in nation with universal healthcare, I live in a nation were that cost is shifted to higher hospital rates for all other patients and Social Security or welfare. In neither of our countries will the irresponsible biker be allowed to die along the road or refused care at the hospital.

    As such, folks claiming the right of stupidity know that they will likely never have to pay for the full cost of their irresponsibility.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98lee View Post
    So would you also be against seatbelt laws?

    The higher injury rate that is thrust on our medical system and our insurance companies is not only paid for by the "stupid". The added risk is added to ALL our premiums and taxes.

    Left to their own devices, the human race has an incredible ability to make the wrong decisions. Just check out You Tube sometime! Especially anything involving young men and wheels!!!


    Some times it takes laws to eventually overcome that "culture" effect that you speak of.

    Full face helmets, neck braces, gloves and firesuits would not be standard in all forms of auto racing today, if regulations had not been passed by all the sanctioning bodies.



    Good points.

    Think if we disbanded, for example, the FAA and just let airline maintenance/safety up to the individual companies? As consumers, we would simply choose which airlines we think are safe and avoid flying those that are not. Total chaos.

    Ever since we moved out of caves and starting 'getting along' in large groups, mankind has needed rules for the common good to live by.

    We did then -we desperately do now.

    If the federal government made helmet use mandatory tomorrow, I wouldn't lose a moment of sleep over it, nor roll out the 'slippery slope' argument - a bit over-used.

    As the time-honored cliche goes: "Common sense really isn't that common."
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  4. #64
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    Agreed!!! FWIW being stupid is never illegal, acting as such might be depending on the what/where/when,DNA? factors. I have a neighbor that takes the time(5 days per week for a month) to drive his 35+ yr old step son(has had 2 strokes & not "real on top of things") to radiation therapy for stage 4 lung cancer & in a visit the other night to my house he shared with us that "he" is smoking again. This after all the sessions of chemo that you & me paid for too. I really bit my tongue to say more. Lawmakers, personal attitudes & freedoms aside, you cannot stop these things fully. I've become a half axx libertarian but still see the rationale for trying to eliminate risk & expense for self, friends & family that care about each other. In KY we have no car inspections-do those amongst us that want no "lawmaker" (don't you,love that term? ) to say you must wear a helmet to also not require that your car have lights,brakes,wipers,you get the drift, and other sundry parts in working order?
    "If I had my life to live over, I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up... I would take fewer things seriously...take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges at age 85.

  5. #65
    Registered User argent brick's Avatar
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    OK, I think you guys missed my point. I don't have a problem wearing a helmet and would do so no matter what the law requires. Also, I don't believe that someone should ride without one. I am not implying that anyone should. I wear a helmet because of a belief that I should be responsible for my own safety. I do, however, have a problem with the fact that I am being forced to wear one by my government. Along those same lines, I have a problem that I have to purchase special insurance in case I have a collision with someone who is uninsured and not complying with our law to insure his/her vehicle.

    I am not supporting that we pick and choose which laws to follow, as someone implied. I just question if the laws are needed in the first place. If our laws and those that we elect into office are truly are a mirror of our moral attitudes, then we seem to cherish safety more than our rights and freedoms. If so, these are dangerous times.

    It can be easily proven that many times education works better that more laws. For example, people still drink and drive even though the laws are tighter than ever. Years ago, Mothers Against Drunk Drivers used a great education campaign to inform the public and, yes, I know that they pushed for harder laws too. Many more people now make wiser choices and will assign a designated driver or take a cab after drinking, making our roads safer. For a lot of us, it was just because of educational efforts and public awareness.

    OK, off my soap box and back to helmets. Personally, I believe that a full face helmet is superior to the almost useless beanie style that is favored by many riders of a motorcycle made here in the United States. Does this mean that I feel that they should wear a full face or modular helmet? Yes. Yes, it does. Does it mean that I feel there should a law forcing them to wear a helmet with better protection?
    Not at all.
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  6. #66
    Registered User argent brick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mika View Post
    FWIW: People I know in London that had them loved them and rode the snot out of them. Trouble was they were required to wear a helmet. BMW's development of the C1 assumed no helmet because the safety features they added. Combined with using the wrong dealer network the bike was doomed but definitively not because it wasn't a fun bike. Production ended a decade ago. A electric concept version was brought out a few years ago but to date has not been released.
    Personally, I would love to own one. Looks like it would be a blast to ride.
    Lynn
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  7. #67
    Registered User AKsuited's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by argent brick View Post
    I do, however, have a problem with the fact that I am being forced to wear one by my government.
    Be thankful you live in a society that addresses the safety and well being of its citizens. You benefit from building codes, electrical codes, plumbing codes, appliance safety codes, codes for steel buildings and bridges, codes and regulations for concrete construction, safety codes for medications, FAA rules and regulations for airlines and airplanes, railroad safety codes, and on and on. It's a bit hypocritical to live comfortably with all those efforts at protecting you and then choose to complain about a single regulation, the more than sensible requirement to wear a safety helmet while riding a motorcycle.

    Harry
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98lee View Post
    Full face helmets, neck braces, gloves and firesuits would not be standard in all forms of auto racing today, if regulations had not been passed by all the sanctioning bodies.



    Full face helmets are not standard in NASCAR. The HANS device or neck brace is not standrad in ALL FORMS of auto racing either...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMSimon View Post
    Full face helmets are not standard in NASCAR. The HANS device or neck brace is not standrad in ALL FORMS of auto racing either...
    Excuse me. You are correct. Those are only mandatory in all the MAJOR racing series; F1, IndyCar, Sprint Cup, Nationwide etc.

    But I guess that proves my point. Even though these safety devices are proven to minimize injuries, you will find people using less effective safety equipment where it is not mandated such as NASCAR's Saturday night bullrings.


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsuited View Post
    Be thankful you live in a society that addresses the safety and well being of its citizens. You benefit from building codes, electrical codes, plumbing codes, appliance safety codes, codes for steel buildings and bridges, codes and regulations for concrete construction, safety codes for medications, FAA rules and regulations for airlines and airplanes, railroad safety codes, and on and on. It's a bit hypocritical to live comfortably with all those efforts at protecting you and then choose to complain about a single regulation, the more than sensible requirement to wear a safety helmet while riding a motorcycle.

    Harry
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsuited View Post
    Be thankful you live in a society that addresses the safety and well being of its citizens. You benefit from building codes, electrical codes, plumbing codes, appliance safety codes, codes for steel buildings and bridges, codes and regulations for concrete construction, safety codes for medications, FAA rules and regulations for airlines and airplanes, railroad safety codes, and on and on. It's a bit hypocritical to live comfortably with all those efforts at protecting you and then choose to complain about a single regulation, the more than sensible requirement to wear a safety helmet while riding a motorcycle.

    Harry

    I have to admit, Harry, your argument has merit. Good job. I would have to agree with you that we are blessed by living in the US. We agree on that. As I read your list of different codes, I have to note that they all seem very beneficial to our country, and I have to let you know that I personally have benefited from every one of them at one time or another. The codes you bring up could be considered general in scope, to protect people at large. However, our helmet law is mandated to protect me from myself and my choices. I don't see that it is the case with any of the codes you bring up. Maybe in the case of aircraft and if you ride on Amtrak. Maybe. If our government tries to protect us from us, that is when many of our freedoms protected in our Bill of Rights can be (and are) put in danger. Look at many of the bills our government has before the House and Senate right now. I can't get into it here because of forum restrictions.

    I could see that it would be hypocritical of me to complain about helmet laws if I was not willing to wear one but felt that everybody else had to. But, I just don't see the connection you are trying to make, sorry.

    Maybe we can agree to disagree. We still have that right, don't we?
    Lynn
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  12. #72
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    I'm curious how those of you in favor of mandatory helmet laws feel about the advisability of OTHER mandatory gear laws? Should the DOT be certifying and requiring the various jackets, pants, gloves and boots we wear when riding a motorcycle? If you are an ATGATT person, do you always wear a spine protector? Should they be required?

    The market place has certainly done an excellent job of making other protective gear available to us at a wide range of price points. But we are still free to choose - and that choice includes riding in T-shirts, shorts, bare hands and flip-flops. Those choices are, to my mind, dumb ones but also legal ones across the US and Canada. And they are the choice of quite a few riders. I fail to see any essential difference between requiring a helmet and requiring other protective gear.

    I see a BIG difference between laws (helmet, seat-belt) that attempt to protect adults from their own stupidity and laws (building codes, required airplane inspections, drunk driving laws) that attempt to protect us from the venality or carelessness of others.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by argent brick View Post
    I have to admit, Harry, your argument has merit. Good job. I would have to agree with you that we are blessed by living in the US. We agree on that. As I read your list of different codes, I have to note that they all seem very beneficial to our country, and I have to let you know that I personally have benefited from every one of them at one time or another. The codes you bring up could be considered general in scope, to protect people at large. However, our helmet law is mandated to protect me from myself and my choices. I don't see that it is the case with any of the codes you bring up. Maybe in the case of aircraft and if you ride on Amtrak. Maybe. If our government tries to protect us from us, that is when many of our freedoms protected in our Bill of Rights can be (and are) put in danger. Look at many of the bills our government has before the House and Senate right now. I can't get into it here because of forum restrictions.

    I could see that it would be hypocritical of me to complain about helmet laws if I was not willing to wear one but felt that everybody else had to. But, I just don't see the connection you are trying to make, sorry.

    Maybe we can agree to disagree. We still have that right, don't we?
    You could make the same claim about any residential building code, couldn't you? And, if enough of your neighbors agreed, you could make the same case about your municipal sewage service and water supply.

    Helmet laws protect me from the cost of the other guy's stupidity. Regardless if the fallen biker is in the US or Canada, he's delivered to the local hospital and he'll be treated for the likely head trauma. Afterwards, the rehab and care is eventually covered by public funds.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRider View Post
    I'm curious how those of you in favor of mandatory helmet laws feel about the advisability of OTHER mandatory gear laws? Should the DOT be certifying and requiring the various jackets, pants, gloves and boots we wear when riding a motorcycle? If you are an ATGATT person, do you always wear a spine protector? Should they be required?

    The market place has certainly done an excellent job of making other protective gear available to us at a wide range of price points. But we are still free to choose - and that choice includes riding in T-shirts, shorts, bare hands and flip-flops. Those choices are, to my mind, dumb ones but also legal ones across the US and Canada. And they are the choice of quite a few riders. I fail to see any essential difference between requiring a helmet and requiring other protective gear.

    I see a BIG difference between laws (helmet, seat-belt) that attempt to protect adults from their own stupidity and laws (building codes, required airplane inspections, drunk driving laws) that attempt to protect us from the venality or carelessness of others.

    Since you're curious, I'll weigh in as a pro-helmet law guy.

    Helmet laws never resulted in further legislation to require specific jackets, spine pads, over-ankle footwear, etc. Again - the slippery slope argument having been rolled out so often, there are ruts in the forum screen for as often as it has been used.

    You're concerned about laws that don't even exist, and I'm having a hard time losing sleep over that. I'm as vigilant as the next guy (maybe more, given my LEO career), but we're chasing ghosts here worrying about a federal helmet law mushrooming into motorcycle gear chaos.

    When seatbelts and air bags became federally mandated, as well as DUI stats thru the roof, we didn't get governors on our accelerators, have to blow into a device to start the car, etc.

    Wear a helmet because you want to, or wear a helmet because you have to...... just wear a helmet.
    Last edited by greenwald; 06-30-2013 at 07:05 PM.
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  15. #75
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    Harry nailed it succinctly in #67. Now that air bags & seat belts are in the air, I'll add that is it not interesting that we find them essential in cars but not other certain vehicles? I'll avoid trucks & aircraft on airbags & point out the fact that a recent school bus crash in the news had a bunch of kids hurt from having been tossed around in the bus compartment. Having ridden in these buses as an adult I see very little safe in those seating arrangements, other than the bus around you.
    I personally see zero difference between the law telling me to wear a seatbelt (which I often did before there was a law) in my car or in aircraft, than a helmet required law(which I also wore years ago) as to personal freedom.
    "If I had my life to live over, I'd dare to make more mistakes next time...I'd relax,I'd limber up... I would take fewer things seriously...take more chances... take more trips...climb more mountains...swim more rivers...eat more ice cream." Jorge Luis Borges at age 85.

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