pglaves
#13338
Because, as you know, sometimes confidentiality is a material requirement to reach a favorable outcome for a member.
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Beginning April 1st, and running through April 30th, there is a new 2024 BMW MOA Election discussion area within The Club section of the forum. Within this forum area is also a sticky post that provides the ground rules for participating in the Election forum area. Also, the candidates statements are provided. Please read before joining the conversation, because the rules are very specific to maintain civility.
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Please vote if you think the MOA should have a more proactive stance with BMW NA
- Thread starter espressoforyou
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Because, as you know, sometimes confidentiality is a material requirement to reach a favorable outcome for a member.
pglaves
#13338
Gee, that could relate to this forum!
In my earlier comment about a regular column in the ON I neglected to say that the report ought to be on the web site too. I think it should be. We don't need a blow-by-blow, but a report of activities is desirable. When I was President and Rob Lentini was the Consumer Liaison the Board was periodically advised of Rob's liaison activity. I am advocating that informatio be provided to the members, in the ON and on the web site. I don't think it is a discussion topic on the forum initiated by the liaison,, but of course after reading something in the ON members might start a thread.
mika
Still Wondering
In addition to Paul's comments, confidentiality may be desired by the member seeking help for their own reasons. Often in the discussion the assumption is that confidentiality gives cover and comfort to the evil Bavarians when a liaison, super of just mortal, may be the desired way for members to seek help with out becoming part of the public record.
oldnslow
It's a way of life!
I do not think the 'Club' should represent any individual, or group, in any matter that is consumer vs. comapny of any kind. MOA should not use its leverage of '40,000' memebers , either implied, assumed or imagined, to make a company play fair, lest we take our football and go home.
I do think it would be reasonable to allow memebers to post their displeasure and/or problems on the forum, in an effort to seek others who have had the same problem or feel similar, and then that group could collectively pursue the company that they have a problem with, all with their own private funds and attorneys if needed. 'Class action' is the term I believe.
The MOA would be serving its memebers by allowing them to use a private forum/webpage that is in part supported by memeber dues to collect their prospective litigants. Heck, maybe even have free advertisement space in the ON, in the classified section, under the heading of 'Class action litigants sought'.
I do think it would be reasonable to allow memebers to post their displeasure and/or problems on the forum, in an effort to seek others who have had the same problem or feel similar, and then that group could collectively pursue the company that they have a problem with, all with their own private funds and attorneys if needed. 'Class action' is the term I believe.
The MOA would be serving its memebers by allowing them to use a private forum/webpage that is in part supported by memeber dues to collect their prospective litigants. Heck, maybe even have free advertisement space in the ON, in the classified section, under the heading of 'Class action litigants sought'.
espressoforyou
New member
Yes that would seem like a reasonable idea
Yes a place to share and collect data on specific bike would be a good starting point. A new page could be easily set up if the forum wanted to make the effort. Several members have suggested the same thing and the forum moderators are very quiet when that topic keeps being brought up. Wonder why?
espressoforyou
New member
Well said Paul, people respect your opinion.
Paul my name in mud or worst around here. Would you mind putting up a poll asking if the members would be interested in your suggestion.
Thanks
Paul my name in mud or worst around here. Would you mind putting up a poll asking if the members would be interested in your suggestion.
Thanks
argent brick
New member
Although I question if the MOA should step in as an official or legal mediator between BMW NA and a frustrated motorcycle owner, I have to agree with Paul.
Having some sort of assistance from our Consumer Liaison is a great idea. It could be something simple, like names and phone numbers of who to contact at BMW NA or even detailed statistical reports of past problems and solutions by model of bike. The reports could easily be compiled from information reported by MOA members to our Consumer Liaison advocate.
A simple PDF form available here on our website should be a easy place to start. This would a simple way to give the liaison something to review before taking any sort of action. The report information could also posted in the ON or even online. If confidentiality is an issue, the report data could be posted without the members name and other personal information.
After a time, we should have a great reference library for our members. Thinking about the purchase of a new R1200? Just look it up. Too many early final drive failures with the R bike? Now you know. Go back to the dealer and buy a K bike instead. BMW NA admitted a design flaw on your bike last year? Now you have something to tell your legal counsel, dealer or small claims judge. Just look up stuff at the liaison's reference desk to see about problems and the end results. The solution to your problem could already exist.
Just my two cents.
I vote no.
mika
Still Wondering
What is the threshold of support for you to act in some way?
In an arena we are not to talk about here I have been part of successful campaigns that started with a few people sitting around a BBQ and having a few beers talking about the issues of the day. I have seen polling data in that arena which showed leads similar to the no vote for this pole in the formative stages yet that candidate lost on the real election day.
-The organization already has a consumer liaison. So there is already a basis in the organization to build on.
-The forum itself exists in large part as a way for members to seek help and exchange information about problems with their BMWs and other motorcycle products.
-You have talked at length it seems with the Greg. He has given us all an outline of how to approach the Board and in the way it was presented it struck me they would really look at it.
-Paul has made several excellent suggestions on the communications front.
-Other members make sincere efforts to post recalls, provide good information to assist with problems through the use of the forum.
All of these people and more have stepped up in some way to do something when they saw a need. The results are often imperfect.
What is the threshold of support for you to act in some constructive way to move the association forward?
In an arena we are not to talk about here I have been part of successful campaigns that started with a few people sitting around a BBQ and having a few beers talking about the issues of the day. I have seen polling data in that arena which showed leads similar to the no vote for this pole in the formative stages yet that candidate lost on the real election day.
-The organization already has a consumer liaison. So there is already a basis in the organization to build on.
-The forum itself exists in large part as a way for members to seek help and exchange information about problems with their BMWs and other motorcycle products.
-You have talked at length it seems with the Greg. He has given us all an outline of how to approach the Board and in the way it was presented it struck me they would really look at it.
-Paul has made several excellent suggestions on the communications front.
-Other members make sincere efforts to post recalls, provide good information to assist with problems through the use of the forum.
All of these people and more have stepped up in some way to do something when they saw a need. The results are often imperfect.
What is the threshold of support for you to act in some constructive way to move the association forward?
espressoforyou
New member
Kert, I think you are mistaken about this, the forum is the place to discuss it.
The poll is about 60/40 and I am very pleased with the results. Sound a lot like the split in our country.
Paul and many others have brought up the consumer liaison position and the need for it to be more accessible and heard from in the magazine and on the forum. Also the need for the consumer liaison or someone like him to be responsible for gathering data on particular models: such as service issues, recalls, service bulletins and other data that can be easily recorded by the members with bikes having issues and easily view by members searching for answers.
We would appreciate your help in finding a way to move this concept into fruition. Maybe you could ask the members to submit examples of pdf forms that could be used to gather the information.
Thank for your help.
The poll is about 60/40 and I am very pleased with the results. Sound a lot like the split in our country.
Paul and many others have brought up the consumer liaison position and the need for it to be more accessible and heard from in the magazine and on the forum. Also the need for the consumer liaison or someone like him to be responsible for gathering data on particular models: such as service issues, recalls, service bulletins and other data that can be easily recorded by the members with bikes having issues and easily view by members searching for answers.
We would appreciate your help in finding a way to move this concept into fruition. Maybe you could ask the members to submit examples of pdf forms that could be used to gather the information.
Thank for your help.
Currently the majority of poll voters don't want the MOA to take a formal stance or advocate against the manufacturer beyond what we currently have. It's been written several times that we have something of a liaison and Greg has also provided a path to presenting an concept or initiative to the Board. I might be misreading things, but it seems like that is where all of this should be headed.
motorman587
New member
I voted no. Hire a lawyer............. 
FACT: The BMW Car Club has Advocates and we should too
As a long time BMW CCA member, the car club has within it an advocate who will go to bat for the customer with BMWNA. For some misguided reason, some of the MOA have the idea that BMWNA is a shrine which can never be questioned even when they are full of BS. As for me, i'm not buying that line of crap. Good business ethics should damn well be on the agenda of the club and we should have the courage to go nose to nose with BMW if they are not treating one of our members fairly. As I learned in Viet Nam, If you don't take care of those in your unit, what good are you?
As a long time BMW CCA member, the car club has within it an advocate who will go to bat for the customer with BMWNA. For some misguided reason, some of the MOA have the idea that BMWNA is a shrine which can never be questioned even when they are full of BS. As for me, i'm not buying that line of crap. Good business ethics should damn well be on the agenda of the club and we should have the courage to go nose to nose with BMW if they are not treating one of our members fairly. As I learned in Viet Nam, If you don't take care of those in your unit, what good are you?
billy walker
BMW Rider
Why do you call us misguided? We're not dealing with hard facts, but with member's wishes and opinions, hence, everyone's opinion is valid for them. If someone doesn't want us to take a combative posture with BMW, that's fine, as is your own misguided statement.
If I can add my 2 cents: if there is a legitimate issue why do you feel it is the MOA taking a combative stance? Why wouldn't it be NA if it is a legitimate product issue? I think you're putting the blame on the wrong shoulders.
I think this gentleman actually makes a great deal of sense.
mika
Still Wondering
I have been trying to learn more about what the BMW CCA person actually does. In the literature I have read the position is described as "Ombudsmen to help with dealer issues." Now that may put them in a position to go to bat with BMW NA, I don't know at this time.
I am asking for purely for information and clarification. Can someone put some actual information about what the BMW CCA Ombudsman's role is in reality or point me in the direction of literature source or person?
akbeemer
SURVIVOR
I voted no. Hire a lawyer.............
+1
It won't work in my opinion, because there is no incentive, carrot or stick, for BMWNA to deal with the MOA on these issues. Want to play hardball? Just imagine the actions BMWNA could take to hurt the MOA if they so desired.
billy walker
BMW Rider
Mika, as you may be aware I have been a strong supporter of advocacy. Having said this the fact that advocacy lost so big what's the point of looking for information? It is obvious the club has no interest in this type of thing. Whether I think it is totally valid or not is immaterial, the facts are it lost by a substantial margin.
The very statement someone made about not wanting to get involved in a combative stance says it all. For some reason we are deemed combative even if the issue is legitimate. Members really need to look at this statement and determine how much sense it makes. I'm the first to admit it is incomprehensible to me why BMW wouldn't look combative but obviously that point of view has little support. Time to stop beating a dead horse.
billy walker
BMW Rider
What the heck could BMW do? Take us to court? Please, stop this utter nonsense. This statement is crazy. We, let me repeat that, we are the customer, not BMW NA. The sooner you realize that the sooner action will be taken. Until then any poor soul is at the mercy of these clowns. Damn, this statement makes me angry. We, we, we are the customer, not the opposite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake up and smell the roses!!!!!!!!!
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