Improving Dying Road Racing

racer7 said:

heavy snip of the op

I hate NASCAR for some of its rules that create only the appearance of racing (eg green/white/checker, restrictor plates, TV related rules) but much of what they do has worked well.
F-1 machines are amazing to watch up close and even their relaitvely modest rule changes have improved the actual competition.
Anyone for pit stops in bike racing and races 2 or 3 tires long?? Does anyone believe fuel or engine number restrictions are really helping.??

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Infront launched a trial balloon just after their acquisition by Bridgepoint of dumping the WSBK two race format and adopting a longer one race with pit stops format. Since then rule refinements for tyres have been made. While they were crafted to deal with current issues of changing weather conditions in a two race format they looked very much like a draft of pit stop tyre rules. At the time it was put forward BMW supported the idea but I have heard precious little about it since then.

I don't think fuel restrictions capacity rules have helped. In the AMA the fuel rules allowed Kawasaki to be competitive and win championships with a bike that was a back marker in the rest of the world. Pit stops in SBK is a very interesting idea for all sorts of reasons. My only real concern is the rider. Bike road racing changing from say the current 20-22 lap format to a 40-44 lap format is a very different challenge for the rider than doubling a cage racing format. How will they stand up to it? What is the safety factor? Two questions of many that may be holding up the shift.

Engine and number of bikes may have helped the back marker racer pay bills but it has done little or nothing to improve racing.

brewmeister said:

Have you seen the TT races in Peoria Ill. in august??? way to exciting,I'll be there again this year. Friday night at the 1/4 mile dirt oval in Peoria,then Galesburg flatrack racing Saturday night then the big race sunday ,the tt national race IN Peoria , all three nights for 45.oo $ , What a deal for so much great racing!!!

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Been there, done that and love it.

TT and Flat track racing is great stuff. Fairly simple homologation rules that have allowed teams to be creative at times and bring things like a BMW F bike to race. Emphasis is on riders and their skills. Small tracks that keep all the racing in front of fans. Much more affordable price point for competitor and fans to manage in their budgets.

For racers and fans the devil is in the details.

AMA Pro Racing
http://www.amaproracing.com/competition/index.cfm?cid=20458

FIM Codes and regulations for MotoGP/3/2, WSBK and more can be found here
http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/official-documents-ccr/codes-and-regulations/

For me it is in the clock. I owe so it is off to work I go.

I have been a spectator at several motorcycle flat tracks , the sound alone of the big bikes gets my blood pumping.

In the early 90's i did some work with the promoter of the MARS series ( motorcycle asphalt racing series) learned a lot and had a good time. It never really took off and after we lost our star rider Will Davis it sort of went away.

I think the problem with flat track racing is an old one of poor image , run at night a lot of the time, on old tracks that have pretty dismal facilities, it is a grimey sort of a game anyway and the public still see it as a 1%er thing I think.

Road racing on the other hand is a bit more glamorous , run in the day time, lots of flashy power ranger suited riders, crews in a uniform, all in all a more professional look to the average consumer. The manufacturers are involved heavily trying to win on Sunday sell on Monday. But how big is their real audience ?

When i was an aspiring club level racer who occasionally rode some of the major events we did it all on our own dime, maybe got a case of oil or a set of spark plugs if you displayed a brand sticker.

Then Suzuki started the cup series and paid money to riders on their brand, still almost no one made enough $$ to say they were a full time pro racer. There were a few, but they did not make a bunch like the GP riders of today.
The AMA did little or nothing except take our entrance money and had a rule book that seemed to us to be very flexible depending on who you were and how much value you might bring.
There was then, and still is no real strong, well financed group to promote road racing in the USA. Several have tried but the average Joe with 2.5 kids , a wife, shaggy dog a mortgage and a 10 year old car just does not get racing , and no one is regularly trying to educate them. So it's an enthusiast sport at best here.

In Europe and other parts of the world where gasoline is really expensive , motorcycles/scooters are more readily accepted in society as a normal stepping stone towards a car . Here in the USA not so much

I'll just touch on a few points.

One: Not a NASCAR fan..particularly since restrictor plates, and all the other "package" components. Even Earnhart SR said ....[way back] either remove the restrictor plates or install lounge chairs in the stands so the fans can enjoy a nap...[something like that] No I do not care who Danica is boinkin'

As far as racing motorcycles, SBK so-so GP quit changing the darn rules...weekly. Love flat track, particularly the Miles!...bring back DuQuoin!!!

For cars? Sprint cars!!! on dirt...........just my 2 pennies.

Kent's comment to me appears to be a misunderstanding of what technology can do to actual racing. Racing by definition is competition between two people operating machines.
And by that definition there is no doubt that the technology in, for example, Moto GP, has damaged racing. The wide car tracks complete the picture and also damage racing as was noted. Those of us who have many hours on tracks at speed know this from direct experience but I'm not surprised its not so obvious to those who don't have direct experience. (Edit there are a few exceptions like the wide turn at the end of the straight in Austin that encourages at least two different approaches to the following corners)

In Moto GP, there is really only 1 line around most tracks. Riders are no longer controlling bike corner exit speed- they are simply pinning the throttle and letting the computer control wheelspin for them. So little passing is possible and almost none happens. Contrast that to Moto 3 where one can watch a smart competitor in a 3rd position pass the two in front as they get involved in a pass / repass move in a set of S turns- all because 3 lines on the track are possible and riders are controlling, not computers.

For a racer, good racing is a combo of balls and brains...

Speed as a spectacle is entirely boring to those with experience., racing (anything) isn't because its about the people doing it. On the fastest spots on track, I'm unkinking my arms and stretching and yes, often with competitors close by- at such places on tracks the motor is doing all the work anyway and there is nothing for me to do except watch. No, NASCAR doesn't show you that on TV but their guys do it too.

I surely do not want to see crashes at races, not ever. Especially bike racing where injures and death are very real possibilities every time. It is personally shattering to see a competitor and friend hurt or killed.
That's the reason my serious track time was in cages, not bikes.

How to balance racing with electronics is actually very simple- let the racers on track decide what is OK for racing and what isn't- believe me, if you've been there would be no doubt in your mind what electronics make a decent balance and what don't. E throttle, for example, would be fine but using every known available traction control wouldn't get racer support except maybe from those with waning skills at their career end. (read Stoner's comments). Heck, even gimmicky electronics like DRS in F-1 help racing and get racer support. I'm not anti-technology but when it displaces the human element almost entirely its time too limit it, even when cheap and affordable. Competitors can develop intense respect/hate relationships with fellow racers- its part of what drives the competition and ought to be well covered by any decent commentator...

(It is entirely possible to fit drivers with G suits and build over 300 mph stuff to race on closed courses, using computerized controls derived from fighter aircraft techology- except maybe for a 1 time spectacle, would anyone who likes racing really enjoy this?). Such machinery would circulate at speeds that made human reaction time look stupidly slow so it has to be eliminated for safety alone. For those who don't know, on today's closed courses the reaction time speed limit works out to low 200s mph....

I'm personally for pit stops and tire changes in bike racing though the exact rules will need development. The F-1 guys have shown how even warp speed pit stops (under 3 seconds) can help racing interest and there's nothing terrible about NASCAR's 5X as long stops either. And any racer knows a fresh tire is worth 2 seconds per lap for a while so forces strategy choice. Race length needs to be kept to 2 hours and riders can adapt- well known to cage racers and built in to rules in some series for both safety and competition reasons. (One of the things to admire about the NASCAR guys is their exposure (gear aided) for long periods to the extreme track heat in those bowls in summer races- its a oven with in car temps sometimes approaching 150)

Don't get me started on AMA- if it disappeared entirely that would be progress IMO...Not a member now and not ever..Doesn't represent me or my views on almost anything I can think of..

How to get more sponsors who aren't bike makers is a serious problem. NASCAR bootstrapped from almost nothing and car makers to where it is today so its possible- but their early days depended heavily on car makers support- far less so today where the cars use similar/identical but specialty parts from aftermarket/specialty shops..
One thing for sure is that takes an audience- especially a large TV audience- that can identify the sponsors. I sometimes can't identify even the competitors on my 55" latest hi tech LED TVs- a combo of crappy paint schemes and lousy camera work (especially any race out of Australia where their camera work is still stone age). Series owners need to mandate corrections. (Hint- mandate a 2 color/large areas paint scheme- a specified color for brand and a second specified color for riders home country- then huge primary sponsor overlay on side panels.) In this regard, one has to look at WSBs channel choice this year as closer to suicidal than intelligent as far as any future in the US goes.

As for the racers themselves- look at AMA Supecross (the only thing AMA does that I like).
Great very young riders who do fine on TV and make sponsors happy. Good racing with focus on both rider and brand, with plenty of sponsor mentions and visibility. So that much is possible. Note that the stadiums are full, the series is engineered with little bits of spectacle (the entirely superfluous flame jets at the finish, the track girls with signs, etc.
If it was me, I'd add corner workers in bikinis, too and get some of those athletic young riders to peel off shirts when doing inteviews so female spectators get some eye candy- these races do appear to attract a youg, mixed sex spectator group)

71243 said:

I'll just touch on a few points.

One: Not a NASCAR fan..particularly since restrictor plates, and all the other "package" components. Even Earnhart SR said ....[way back] either remove the restrictor plates or install lounge chairs in the stands so the fans can enjoy a nap...[something like that]

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Restrictor plate racing makes for a tiny fraction of the event schedule however.

71243 said:

No I do not care who Danica is boinkin'

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How un-American!

.............

71243 said:

For cars? Sprint cars!!! on dirt...........just my 2 pennies.

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Way too much crashing going on. It appears to be crashing as opposed to racing. Although very exciting when actually racing.

racer7 said:

Kent's comment to me appears to be a misunderstanding of what technology can do to actual racing. Racing by definition is competition between two people operating machines.
And by that definition there is no doubt that the technology in, for example, Moto GP, has damaged racing. The wide car tracks complete the picture and also damage racing as was noted. Those of us who have many hours on tracks at speed know this from direct experience but I'm not surprised its not so obvious to those who don't have direct experience. (Edit there are a few exceptions like the wide turn at the end of the straight in Austin that encourages at least two different approaches to the following corners)

In Moto GP, there is really only 1 line around most tracks. Riders are no longer controlling bike corner exit speed- they are simply pinning the throttle and letting the computer control wheelspin for them. So little passing is possible and almost none happens. Contrast that to Moto 3 where one can watch a smart competitor in a 3rd position pass the two in front as they get involved in a pass / repass move in a set of S turns- all because 3 lines on the track are possible and riders are controlling, not computers.

Speed as a spectacle is entirely boring to those with experience., racing (anything) isn't because its about the people doing it. On the fastest spots on track, I'm unkinking my arms and stretching and yes, often with competitors close by- at such places on tracks the motor is doing all the work anyway and there is nothing for me to do except watch. No, NASCAR doesn't show you that on TV but their guys do it too.

I surely do not want to see crashes at races, not ever. Especially bike racing where injures and death are very real possibilities every time. It is personally shattering to see a competitor and friend hurt or killed.
That's the reason my serious track time was in cages, not bikes.

How to balance racing with electronics is actually very simple- let the racers on track decide what is OK for racing and what isn't- believe me, if you've been there would be no doubt in your mind what electronics make a decent balance and what don't. E throttle, for example, would be fine but using every known available traction control wouldn't get racer support except maybe from those with waning skills at their career end. (read Stoner's comments). Heck, even gimmicky electronics like DRS in F-1 help racing and get racer support. I'm not anti-technology but when it displaces the human element almost entirely its time too limit it, even when cheap and affordable. Competitors can develop intense respect/hate relationships with fellow racers- its part of what drives the competition and ought to be well covered by any decent commentator...

(It is entirely possible to fit drivers with G suits and build over 300 mph stuff to race on closed courses, using computerized controls derived from fighter aircraft techology- except maybe for a 1 time spectacle, would anyone who likes racing really enjoy this?). Such machinery would circulate at speeds that made human reaction time look stupidly slow so it has to be eliminated for safety alone. For those who don't know, on today's closed courses the reaction time speed limit works out to low 200s mph....

I'm personally for pit stops and tire changes in bike racing though the exact rules will need development. The F-1 guys have shown how even warp speed pit stops (under 3 seconds) can help racing interest and there's nothing terrible about NASCAR's 5X as long stops either. And any racer knows a fresh tire is worth 2 seconds per lap for a while so forces strategy choice. Race length needs to be kept to 2 hours and riders can adapt- well known to cage racers and built in to rules in some series for both safety and competition reasons. (One of the things to admire about the NASCAR guys is their exposure (gear aided) for long periods to the extreme track heat in those bowls in summer races- its a oven with in car temps sometimes approaching 150)

Don't get me started on AMA- if it disappeared entirely that would be progress IMO...Not a member now and not ever..Doesn't represent me or my views on almost anything I can think of..

How to get more sponsors who aren't bike makers is a serious problem. NASCAR bootstrapped from almost nothing and car makers to where it is today so its possible- but their early days depended heavily on car makers support- far less so today where the cars use similar/identical but specialty parts from aftermarket/specialty shops..
One thing for sure is that takes an audience- especially a large TV audience- that can identify the sponsors. I sometimes can't identify even the competitors on my 55" latest hi tech LED TVs- a combo of crappy paint schemes and lousy camera work (especially any race out of Australia where their camera work is still stone age). Series owners need to mandate corrections. (Hint- mandate a 2 color/large areas paint scheme- a specified color for brand and a second specified color for riders home country- then huge primary sponsor overlay on side panels.) In this regard, one has to look at WSBs channel choice this year as closer to suicidal than intelligent as far as any future in the US goes.

As for the racers themselves- look at AMA Supecross (the only thing AMA does that I like).
Great very young riders who do fine on TV and make sponsors happy. Good racing with focus on both rider and brand, with plenty of sponsor mentions and visibility. So that much is possible. Note that the stadiums are full, the series is engineered with little bits of spectacle (the entirely superfluous flame jets at the finish, ..........

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Well written and very true IMO.

Very interesting post. I picked this paragraph out

"One thing for sure is that takes an audience- especially a large TV audience- that can identify the sponsors. I sometimes can't identify even the competitors on my 55" latest hi tech LED TVs- a combo of crappy paint schemes and lousy camera work (especially any race out of Australia where their camera work is still stone age). Series owners need to mandate corrections. (Hint- mandate a 2 color/large areas paint scheme- a specified color for brand and a second specified color for riders home country- then huge primary sponsor overlay on side panels.) In this regard, one has to look at WSBs channel choice this year as closer to suicidal than intelligent as far as any future in the US goes."

I was amazed, and not in a good way, with the WSBK channel choice also. Not available in my area.

I am more and more amazed with motorcycle racing's dependence on the TV revenue model in the internet age. It is a sport that has failed to take seriously the internet, on board cameras and the possibility of users making director decisions on which duels to follow or what track views to watch or ignore.

I have no time in the saddle as a MC racer. At 6'4+" and a build between a middle line backer or defensive end I spent my days as pit crew, team management or looking at the track from a corner worker stand (you do not want me in a bikini). In the team management role it was incredibly hard to get sponsors for bikes compared to any of the sports cars or even drag racers I was involved with over the years. I could get approval for super modified dirt cars from upper management before I could a bike.

Properly done the internet could draw in a sustainable viewer base and provide a means for racer sponsors and event advertisers to get their messages across. In the case of WSBK a horrid channel choice was made and they cut back on their internet available video.

mika said:

I am more and more amazed with motorcycle racing's dependence on the TV revenue model in the internet age. It is a sport that has failed to take seriously the internet, on board cameras and the possibility of users making director decisions on which duels to follow or what track views to watch or ignore.

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All available on MotoGP.com right now. As I mentioned earlier, its 99 Euro a year. With Dorna now owning WSBK, and having already published rule changes to take effect for 2014, you can count on WSBK being available on a subscription basis in the near future.

As far as the AMA/DMG farce is concerned - the sooner it dies, the sooner someone will pick up the pieces and fashion something worth watching/competing in. Why is there only one "factory" team (Yamaha) competing in AMA Superbike? Because the people making up the rules and promoting the events are, to be delicate, idiots, and the other factories have no interest in participating.

Motorcycle racing in North America will never have the base of support auto racing has. I think that's a given. At the same time, from what I've seen, motorcycle racing fans are typically more educated in who is riding what and for whom than the typical auto racing fan. When the game was changed on them (Superbike as a support class with Daytona Sportbike as the main event, fer cryin' out loud) and Mladin, Duhamel, Hacking, etcetera were left without rides, the fans stopped showing up.

That's my opinion. Yours may differ. That's ok, too.

These are excellent points.
Racer interaction with fans has always been key. In NASCAR, its part of a driver's job automatically as are sponsor hospitality interactions- makes the whole game more fun for everyone. There are plenty of folks in many sports who understand that signing autographs for hours, as tiring as it might be, is what makes their endorsement career $ possible.

I've got a friend who for various reasons got invited to Ferrari's hospitality gigs at a few F-1 races (as a guest and not even in the US!) - lavish and up close and personal with all members of their team from managers to drivers to pit crew. Followed by race action seen from the private Ferrari boxes so one can root for the guys you just met. Guess who he follows these days?

I remember casually meeting Gary Nixon a couple times at local bike shops near Baltimore when I was just learning to ride in the 1960s- followed his career with interest. (The Triumph importer was in Timonium and tested bikes on a nearby road and undeveloped land there). Disappointed by his too young death a while ago..

No doubt internet fan interactions are becoming more important and far more possible with the proliferation of smartphones. Racing series that adapt can be predicted to garner additional fans for doing so..

In Supercross, note the mingling of the crowd with the teams in between heats. Even in Monster Truck the drivers go out of the way to play to their fans- running vehicles right into and beyond the point of destruction, sometimes even on their side, knowing full well that it will take extra repair $ and crew time to fix the damage. The two leaders of the Senior TT at Isle of Mann give great, thoughtful interviews though not as polished as some others. Grumpy non social bike racers are and will continue to be a thing of the past- if for no other reason that virtually all modern racing rapidly becomes a team sport aas one progresses- loners, no matter their talent, will be limited..

BC1100S said:

All available on MotoGP.com right now. As I mentioned earlier, its 99 Euro a year. With Dorna now owning WSBK, and having already published rule changes to take effect for 2014, you can count on WSBK being available on a subscription basis in the near future. snipped

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I knew that, thanks for reminding me. I'm blaming my mistake on doing to many things at once.

As a racing junky i admit to watching about everything that comes on the tube for at least a few minutes.

Wife was watching an Indy car parade the other day and asked me who the heck designed the paint on those cars. She said several of them looked like Detroit camo test mules . I watched and darned if she was not right, several of the cars looked like they had pieces and parts on them left over from a wreck from the odd and mismatched colors ???
For the life of me i could not identify who their main sponsors were.

As someone else commented , bike racers are not very polished when it comes to the media, but I am always impressed when the Moto 3 riders are interviewed . Here are these kids and i mean kids, who are struggling with their own native language to get a point across , and doing their best to respond in English . They have figured it out that part of getting a factory GP ride is being able to speak at least passably to the media in English . To me that's impressive and I applaud them for their efforts .

I have never been a fan of Alberto Puig , but he has done more to help riders than we can imagine with professionalism.

I too am a racing junkie, will watch any race if it's on the tube and I'm surfing. Moto is the best to watch IMO. Next the dirt mile, which rarely is on the tube.

Fav car racing was when we were kids. Every year around Memorial Day, the big question was always something like this, "Will the small block Chevy hold together?, or, How fast will that Granitelli STP turbin be?, or, When will that Rambler six blow up?, or That Lotus will never make to the end, too light, furrin and will be blown into the weeds by the Offies."

Racing cars today is so regulated that it's lost what we had in the past, honest cheating, which made it interesting cause everybody was doing it. I'd love to see Chevy, Ford, Toyota, field actual sedans off the showroom floor, a few mods, and then race the hell out of'em, the stands would be full to capacity.

Went to Mich Int. one time, was stunned after the first lap when they got up to speed, it was like a hurricane goin by.

Forgot to mention the really best racing, sitting out in a corn field on a warm summer evening, popcorn, a beer, half to three quarter mile dirt nicely watered/packed late in the afternoon, kids running around with gummy bears in hand, American flags waving, locals getting suited up, some engines not started since bolted up minutes ago, try to see it at least once a year, somewhere in the great Midwest.

Having once been in the business, I love open wheel racing. It started gong downhill in 1978, before I got into it. That was the year Colin Chapman introduced the ground effects car (I'm not counting the "wedge" turbine cars in this) . Jump ahead a few years and they were doing 225+ mph laps at Indy and they were flat the whole way 'round. No lifting for the corners, just steer that baby in, no brakes required except for pit stops. Took a lot of the previously required skill and put it on the shelf. Not that the drivers weren't talented.

Now, in bike racing, a similar thing has happened and that is GPS-modded traction control which takes into account the specific corner the bike is in, the speed, the gear, the G's, the lean angle, and more. As someone has mentioned, the riders "simply" whack the throttle open and in-electronic-measures-we-trust, they fire out of the corner. Is this a bad thing? Lots of opinions on that.

If I ruled the world (hey, it might still happen) open wheel race cars get flat bottoms, fat tires, and no traction control. Bikes would lose most of the traction control and the throttle bodies would be controlled by cables attached to the throttle, not servos. In my opinion, the best days of 500GP and MotoGP were '90-'01 and '02-'07, respectively.

A far as NASCAR is concerned, there would be no 2-door, V8, Toyota Camrys on the grid, cars would have to run intake systems similar to what the "stock" car has (no carbs) and if one manufacturer got a little ahead of their competition well, good on 'em. And any fans who showed up at the track so they could stand behind the broadcast crew with inane signs would be barred from entering. And that's just a start.

BC1100S said:

Having once been in the business, I love open wheel racing. It started gong downhill in 1978, before I got into it. That was the year Colin Chapman introduced the ground effects car (I'm not counting the "wedge" turbine cars in this) . Jump ahead a few years and they were doing 225+ mph laps at Indy and they were flat the whole way 'round. No lifting for the corners, just steer that baby in, no brakes required except for pit stops. Took a lot of the previously required skill and put it on the shelf. Not that the drivers weren't talented.

Now, in bike racing, a similar thing has happened and that is GPS-modded traction control which takes into account the specific corner the bike is in, the speed, the gear, the G's, the lean angle, and more. As someone has mentioned, the riders "simply" whack the throttle open and in-electronic-measures-we-trust, they fire out of the corner. Is this a bad thing? Lots of opinions on that.

If I ruled the world (hey, it might still happen) open wheel race cars get flat bottoms, fat tires, and no traction control. Bikes would lose most of the traction control and the throttle bodies would be controlled by cables attached to the throttle, not servos. In my opinion, the best days of 500GP and MotoGP were '90-'01 and '02-'07, respectively.

A far as NASCAR is concerned, there would be no 2-door, V8, Toyota Camrys on the grid, cars would have to run intake systems similar to what the "stock" car has (no carbs) and if one manufacturer got a little ahead of their competition well, good on 'em. And any fans who showed up at the track so they could stand behind the broadcast crew with inane signs would be barred from entering. And that's just a start.

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Update: NASCAR no longer uses carbs. No big deal. As far as I'm concerned fuel injectors or carbs are perfectly fine. What ever floats your boat.

billy walker said:

Restrictor plate racing makes for a tiny fraction of the event schedule however.

True! but lets get rid of the spotters as well...let the driver drive the car. Put rain tires on them and let'em race. OK they'll be slower, so what? they don't need to do a zillion MPH to have a good race.



How un-American!

.............



Way too much crashing going on. It appears to be crashing as opposed to racing. Although very exciting when actually racing.

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Sometimes! seems like they just can't get it together and not bang into each other. When they do get one sorted out...that's exciting to watch.

You may have already watched but at Road and Track site check out vids on Clark's Lotus 49 driven by A Rossi at Texas. Gives a clue as to what racing formerly was like. Also some stuff about Indy.

8ninety8 said:

You may have already watched but at Road and Track site check out vids on Clark's Lotus 49 driven by A Rossi at Texas. Gives a clue as to what racing formerly was like. Also some stuff about Indy.

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Went there and couldn't find it. If you could provide a link I would be forever in your debt. Thanks!

EDIT: Nevermind. Used the search function. Duh! Thanks again!

As a kid, I saw Clark drive that car at the first Canadian Gran Prix at Mosport. I've never forgotten the sounds and the sight. (Clark led the race going away and then it started raining. Water shorted out his battery. DNF)

to watch the grip of death on the wheel cutting back an forth, while the right hand is whacking away on a stubby angled shift lever, sitting between two fuel tanks, well, it's simply unimaginable the courage these mid sixties to late seventies drivers had to climb into an Indy or a Grands Prix racer. guess that's why airheads like their old bikes, there's some noise, old tech is whirring away inside an old engine, takes awhile to wind'em out, and if you bolted'em together, some courage to hold'em wide open. Not to mention an airhead is a simple way to get on down the road. I gotta get over to Elkhart when they run the old stuff including the old bikes.