How to improve the MOA forum.

espressoforyou said:

........

Thanks for clearing up my inaccuracies in the dealer having to pay for part of the warranty work. I am going by memory but I believe that David Bloodworth at Bloodworth BMW in Nashville said that for warranty work BMW only pays a certain percent of the flat rate. I could have misunderstood him.

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David never stated this. BMW pays 100% of the stated flat rate for a given repair + parts value. What he may have stated is the repair is actually worth more than flat rate. OEM flat rate times are typically understated. The more time an OEM allows the more money they have to reimburse the dealership. An undesirable end result. There have been lawsuits over this very issue in the automotive world. Motorcycle dealers are not strong enough to stand-up to an OEM without incurring significant financial pain therefore you won't see motorcycle dealers doing this. And, similar to the MOA/BMW relationship many dealers are afraid to battle against an OEM due to the possibility of the franchise agreement not being renewed.

As to "warranty" work... many people are confused by the terms warranty and goodwill. Warranty work is simply work performed under a given OEM's warranty policy for defective parts. Not worn out but defective. The vehicle in question must be within its warranty period in order to begin to qualify for a warranty repair. Once the warranty runs out the term goodwill enters the picture. There are zero rules when it comes to goodwill. The OEM has the right to determine the conditions period. Right down to whether they will goodwill or not.

espressoforyou said:

So I was way low on your service claims numbers.

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No, you were way too high on service claims. I have not filed 13,000 warranty claims in my life much less than the last 4 years.

espressoforyou said:

I bet that there are less than 10 members on the forum that worked for thirty 30 years at a motorcycle dealer much less 4 years at a BMW dealer.

So with all the power I have vested in me by the MOA I pronounce you The Expert in what goes on at the average dealership. As The Expert your starting salary will be $197,250 plus expenses of course.

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Let's not go there. There may be people who would totally disagree with this statement. I'm an expert in my own mind. That and a $5 bill will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

espressoforyou and billy walker, just an observation, but have you noticed this thread has become primarily you two cybering back and forth to each other? Appears the never-employed by a BMW dealership group has left the building. However, didn't mean to interrupt, just reaching back to close the "door".

Motodan said:

espressoforyou and billy walker, just an observation, but have you noticed this thread has become primarily you two cybering back and forth to each other? Appears the never-employed by a BMW dealership group has left the building.....

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Buy a Harley. Can I have my MOA back?

One of the best ways to improve this forum would have been to ban espressoforyou from this forum quite some time ago.

Motodan said:

espressoforyou and billy walker, just an observation, but have you noticed this thread has become primarily you two cybering back and forth to each other? Appears the never-employed by a BMW dealership group has left the building. However, didn't mean to interrupt, just reaching back to close the "door".

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Page 12 forward seems to have tipped that direction as you state. I missed that. Excellent observation. Now it's time to turn out the lights.

20774 said:

kantuckid -

I'm a little confused on your quote and response? My post was about a completely different point.

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yes, a misquote

billy walker said:

In the age of multi-franchise big box stores it is indeed difficult for dealers to stay on top of things, and in fact they fail frequently from the sales side to the service department. Just way, way too much information to be absorbed. This does not lessen the requirement that they do stay on top of things however. Multi-franchise big box stores are nothing but a mistake from the consumer side. Today's economics however won't allow single franchise stores to stay in business much of the time. Sometimes the dealers fault, sometimes the geographic location. It's not easy out there.

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"BW", I've now read of (w/o my having made any real semblance of a true search for just this topic) two owners that had 650 single MC's with the "Hot Start" issue, that actually took the service bulletin info to the dealer( not TMI as you mention?) & got zero satisfaction in spite of an "in your face" situation. FWIW, my seller found that the 2nd dealer he went to had full knowledge of the bulletin & executed the repair. The 1st dealer "sort of" did the right thing w/o the "right parts" & was also an extravaganza of high cost for the previous owner as the ATL dealer proceeded to truly gouge the guy to the tune of over $200 for an oil change & little more!-and his MC still wouldn't start hot!!! Is it more difficult for BMW dealers to get money back for bulletin repairs than warranty work? What am I missing here?
PG makes clear that MOA "has" this person in the form of the liaison . w/o knowing anything about them (since little or nothing appears in a public,i.e.members forum) , it is spot on for him to say this is the exact kind of info that could "pass it on" to others as a way to solve problems. Is BMWNA so tight($$$) that they really don't want a general release of basic service issues? Perhaps the service mgrs don't want the novice traffic that would result?
From the many years that I used to belong to BMWCCA I remember calling the tech line & getting straight, pro level, car tech info.
Fact is that(per my example & its a serious issue,thank you) a MC that absolutely will not start hot IS A SAFETY ISSUE!!! Easy to visualize a situ wherein the rider is in heavy traffic & a simple clutch slip up, etc. results in sitting in an unsavory place on the road or other nasty senarios-we are talking of an "adventure machine" here.
I think that this (the bitch & moan threads as some say) is what can actually be construed as a proactive effort to get members/riders a more satisfactory BMW MC experience! Even my "curmugeonly self" manages to see some light in in this.

Glad you brought this up kanduckid concerning the liaison.

kantuckid said:

"BW", I've now read of (w/o my having made any real semblance of a true search for just this topic) two owners that had 650 single MC's with the "Hot Start" issue, that actually took the service bulletin info to the dealer( not TMI as you mention?) & got zero satisfaction in spite of an "in your face" situation. FWIW, my seller found that the 2nd dealer he went to had full knowledge of the bulletin & executed the repair. The 1st dealer "sort of" did the right thing w/o the "right parts" & was also an extravaganza of high cost for the previous owner as the ATL dealer proceeded to truly gouge the guy to the tune of over $200 for an oil change & little more!-and his MC still wouldn't start hot!!! Is it more difficult for BMW dealers to get money back for bulletin repairs than warranty work? What am I missing here?
PG makes clear that MOA "has" this person in the form of the liaison . w/o knowing anything about them (since little or nothing appears in a public,i.e.members forum) , it is spot on for him to say this is the exact kind of info that could "pass it on" to others as a way to solve problems. Is BMWNA so tight($$$) that they really don't want a general release of basic service issues? Perhaps the service mgrs don't want the novice traffic that would result?
From the many years that I used to belong to BMWCCA I remember calling the tech line & getting straight, pro level, car tech info.
Fact is that(per my example & its a serious issue,thank you) a MC that absolutely will not start hot IS A SAFETY ISSUE!!! Easy to visualize a situ wherein the rider is in heavy traffic & a simple clutch slip up, etc. results in sitting in an unsavory place on the road or other nasty senarios-we are talking of an "adventure machine" here.
I think that this (the bitch & moan threads as some say) is what can actually be construed as a proactive effort to get members/riders a more satisfactory BMW MC experience! Even my "curmugeonly self" manages to see some light in in this.

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Paul was kind enough to help me with my bike several years ago and suggested I call the liaison and I did. I think his name was Jim(sorry I can't remember) and he was very nice and did ALL he could to help me out. The liaison called BMW NA for me and contacted Bloodworth BMW and spoke with the owner. The liaison said that the owner "appear annoyed that he had a call from a liaison" . The liaison was very nice and did all he could, but that is the problem with that position. The liaison has NO real power or pull to get anything done. I still think it is a needed position but I would like to see a "Super Liaison" that has access to service bulletins, recalls and a updated spreadsheet of members that are having repeated problems with their bikes and what solutions they have "uncovered" if any.

Any owner of a BMW MC that is also a member of this large of a BMW MC club should not have to "shoot in the dark" for a known service bulletin fix. Unless of course, BMW is unwilling to provide this information to a "true technical liaison" that is something more than purely a consumer affairs go between person? Pay them if need be? If I remember correctly, that is a paid position with BMWCCA (which I'm sure is much larger than our MC group), but still a need exists.

I've also personally experienced the effort to use a "go between type person" in the form of the Better Business Bureau with a retail business & that is futile once satisfaction is unobtainable through civil discussion. Besides, look at who pays who's salary in that scenario. I have never heard or read of our clubs person & their services even though I was fully aware of them in the masthead of ON.

kantuckid, looks like the MOA leadership isn't providing a lot of leadership on this.

Looks to me like the moderators would rather shoot anybody that brings up the issue of providing help for the members in gathering service bulletins, recalls and serving as a clearinghouse for information about possible defects on our bikes.

And why in the world is there not a place on the forum this has direct contact information to BMW NA and to the regional service writers?



Skip the advocate idea but give the consumer liaison position the responsibility of gathering and releasing this data. The members could fill out a simple pdf form with:

Year, model, last 4 #'s of vin, service bulletins, recalls, repeated problems, solutions and so on.

Then if a member has an issue with their bike they can search through this data base and be more informed when they talk to the dealer and possibly provide useful information to the dealer about certain issues.

espressoforyou said:

Looks to me like the moderators would rather shoot anybody.....

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Looks to me like the the leadership of this club would like to lead in areas they believe people will follow. You've started numerous repetitive threads trying to drum up support for your position. Your poll attracted a grand total of what, 125 votes? In the world of stats that's called inconsequential. Do not blame the executive of the club for the result. Your other option is to run for a leadership position. If that is your choice, I wish you good luck.

espressoforyou said:

Looks to me like the moderators would rather shoot anybody that brings up the issue of providing help for the members in gathering service bulletins, recalls and serving as a clearinghouse for information about possible defects on our bikes.

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Speaking for myself, I don't appreciate these broad sweeping judgments. This is totally unfounded. We take direction from a variety of inputs and in this instance, it seems that the poll and other comments in this wide range of threads you've started, has provided something to consider about going forward with this. In the end, if there is something to show that, as a whole, can be beneficial to more than a few members, it can be considered. This is what happens with ANY additions to the forum, the MOA homepage, and I suspect the ON.

Thanks BC1100S I will count on your vote if I decide to run.

BC1100S said:

Looks to me like the the leadership of this club would like to lead in areas they believe people will follow. You've started numerous repetitive threads trying to drum up support for your position. Your poll attracted a grand total of what, 125 votes? In the world of stats that's called inconsequential. Do not blame the executive of the club for the result. Your other option is to run for a leadership position. If that is your choice, I wish you good luck.

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The thread "How to improve the forum" is the most viewed and replied thread on the Motorrad page in the last four months with 191 replies and 5417 views. So there is interest in improving the forum. Who doesn't want and try to improve something?

Several well thought of members such as Paul Glaves have suggested that the consumer liaison be a more vocal and public position:

Paul Glaves said the following:

"BMW MOA has a volunteer advocate - called the Consumer Liaison. This is new to neither BMW MOA nor the several threads swirling about. But that fact keeps being overlooked. So is the Consumer Liaison, by members with issues with vendors, dealers, or BMW.

I believe there should be a "regular" column in the Owners News that reports the activities of the Consumer Liaison and the issues that he/she has dealt with. Whether "regular" means quarterly or monthly or whatever depends on the level of activity, use, and interest by the members.

This would have two possible affects with two distinct advantages. First, the possibility of regular publicity might have some modest effect on how folks cooperate and compromise. I do understand that often confidentiality is important. but issues can be described in generalities when necessary. More importantly however, every member would at least have the opportunity of being reminded that such a person as the Consumer Liaison exists and could be of help to a member.

It is my considered opinion that when issues arise it is important to address them at the earliest possible moment. The next day is often not too soon. The fact that BMW MOA has a person who might be able to help ought to be well publicized and in the forefront of folks minds when they believe they have a problem. A regular column in the ON would provide an opportunity for folks to know this much better than a name and phone number with a somewhat obscure title on the staff listing in the magazine."

So there is interest in improving the forum and the MOA. Maybe the advocate position is not the right idea at this time but a more visible consumer liaison with a data base of service bulletins, recall and repair issue seems to have some interest.

espressoforyou said:

The fact that BMW MOA has a person who might be able to help ought to be well publicized and in the forefront of folks minds when they believe they have a problem. A regular column in the ON would provide an opportunity for folks to know this much better than a name and phone number with a somewhat obscure title on the staff listing in the magazine.

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So why don't you step up and start this process? I get the impression you're looking for someone else to run with this...so far no one really wants to take it on. Your the champion of this idea...do something about it. Contact the liaison and see where it goes.

espressoforyou said:

The thread "How to improve the forum" is the most viewed and replied thread on the Motorrad page in the last four months with 191 replies and 5417 views. So there is interest in improving the forum.

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That may be your opinion. Not sure that I'd equate number of views with interest in improving the forum. To me, its kind of like watching a train wreck. Plus, most of the responses seem to belong to you and Billy Walker.

Safe riding.

20774 said:

So why don't you step up and start this process? I get the impression you're looking for someone else to run with this...so far no one really wants to take it on. Your the champion of this idea...do something about it. Contact the liaison and see where it goes.

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I am in the process of putting together a help wanted post in my main thread. This is to get help with ideas that have been building since considering a run for the Board in 2010 and putting my application in for the Executive Director position. It has a working title of Industry Monitor and is aimed at providing broad range of motorcycle industry information (including but not limited to things brought up in this thread) desired by a range of membership that has been discussed for several years and in a variety of other threads. It has nothing directly to do with a liaison but the system if adopted could help such a office in many ways. My hope has been to have this component of my overall plan ready for the fall Board meeting in St. Paul. (at least my assumption is it will be in St. Paul to allow the Board to visit the 2014 site).

Frankly I have great concerns how an idea I have been nursing along will be received because of this campaign for an advocate position. It is not an end run to develop one. It has nothing directly to do with this type of position. I am not seeking help from anyone who will try to use it for that purpose.

So you say there is not interest in improving the forum?

BC1100S said:

That may be your opinion. Not sure that I'd equate number of views with interest in improving the forum. To me, its kind of like watching a train wreck. Plus, most of the responses seem to belong to you and Billy Walker.

Safe riding.

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It there is not any interest in improving the forum then what we have is a stagnant place for graying MOA members to discuss old times(I am already gray), and that is fine but sooner or later there will be fewer and fewer members if we don't keep up with the changing times.

Who doesn't want to improve everything? BC1100S would you like to improve you riding skills, typing skills, exercise habits........

Sure, we all should want to improve everything. Should BMW have stopped with the airhead? I am sure it is great bike, but Motorrad would have died if that would have been their last improvement.

Forget about my ideas for improvement and come up with your on ideas.

See if you can figure out what quote means and who first said it.

"You are free to choose, but you are not free to not choose, and you are not free to choose the consequences of your choice"

Let's all try to think outside the box. Forget that espressoforyou has ever posted anything(don't make it about your dislike of me) and think of ways that the MOA and the forum can help it members share information about their bikes when facing repeated repair issues or information about service bulletins, direct contact information to BMW NA, among other stuff.

Thanks for your help BC1100s, I look forward to reading your suggestions.

espressoforyou said:

See if you can figure out what quote means and who first said it.

"You are free to choose, but you are not free to not choose, and you are not free to choose the consequences of your choice"

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This is shown to be a universal paradox. And a paradox is defined as "...an argument that produces an inconsistency, typically within logic or common sense." That perfectly defines where we're at...people are trying to use common sense and we're getting no where.

espressoforyou said:

Let's all try to think outside the box. Forget that espressoforyou has ever posted anything(don't make it about your dislike of me) and think of ways that the MOA and the forum can help it members share information about their bikes when facing repeated repair issues or information about service bulletins, direct contact information to BMW NA, among other stuff.

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This has been a singular quest by you...very few people seem to be in your shoes or have been in your shoes. Even while you're trying to think outside the box, you're still foucsed on your needs. This issue of yours is very small relative to all that is BMW motorcycle and the MOA...IMO.

espressoforyou said:

The thread "How to improve the forum" is the most viewed and replied thread on the Motorrad page in the last four months with 191 replies and 5417 views. So there is interest in improving the forum. Who doesn't want and try to improve something?

Several well thought of members such as Paul Glaves have suggested that the consumer liaison be a more vocal and public position:

Paul Glaves said the following:

"BMW MOA has a volunteer advocate - called the Consumer Liaison. This is new to neither BMW MOA nor the several threads swirling about. But that fact keeps being overlooked. So is the Consumer Liaison, by members with issues with vendors, dealers, or BMW.

I believe there should be a "regular" column in the Owners News that reports the activities of the Consumer Liaison and the issues that he/she has dealt with. Whether "regular" means quarterly or monthly or whatever depends on the level of activity, use, and interest by the members.

This would have two possible affects with two distinct advantages. First, the possibility of regular publicity might have some modest effect on how folks cooperate and compromise. I do understand that often confidentiality is important. but issues can be described in generalities when necessary. More importantly however, every member would at least have the opportunity of being reminded that such a person as the Consumer Liaison exists and could be of help to a member.

It is my considered opinion that when issues arise it is important to address them at the earliest possible moment. The next day is often not too soon. The fact that BMW MOA has a person who might be able to help ought to be well publicized and in the forefront of folks minds when they believe they have a problem. A regular column in the ON would provide an opportunity for folks to know this much better than a name and phone number with a somewhat obscure title on the staff listing in the magazine."

So there is interest in improving the forum and the MOA. Maybe the advocate position is not the right idea at this time but a more visible consumer liaison with a data base of service bulletins, recall and repair issue seems to have some interest.

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Randy, if I may:

You're beating this thing to death and once dead you're continuing on and on. A suggestion from someone who supported the advocate meaning me. Lay off; the club is not interested. The poll is proof positive unless you feel it hasn't gone on long enough. If you feel more time is necessary hold back on your posts for whatever time you feel is appropriate until you can confidently state "we" have either won or lost. But enough is really enough.

Trust me a Consumer Liaison, a BMW Liaison, a Super Liaison and a Super Duper Liaison will NOT be able to break thru to NA. I've dealt with them and they are useless. Sure maybe BMW throws them a bone once in awhile but at the end of the day it is a total waste of time. The only way a large corporation listens is with massive negative publicity and that is never assured of either. One or 2 or 50 people are not going to change the ethics of a BMW-type corporation.

Confidentiality is typically not important UNLESS you are hiding something from others. This describing things in generalities is a non-starter. Please just realize this is the end of the road and kick back and catch a buzz or whatever it is you're into. Both of us tried and we lost. So get over it and relax. Maybe approach the subject yet again in 18 or 24 months or whatever you feel is appropriate. Your continued postings are torturing people and that is not right even if you happen to be right. They have a right to their opinions. Please respect that.

Tomorrow is Saturday. If you're off thank God for your day and go riding! You just might enjoy yourself!

BC1100S said:

That may be your opinion. Not sure that I'd equate number of views with interest in improving the forum. To me, its kind of like watching a train wreck. Plus, most of the responses seem to belong to you and Billy Walker.

Safe riding.

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FWIW, I tend to read what catches my eye, & comment where I can contribute or entertain myself. I mostly don't read(view) stuff that I have no interest in, at least not, over & over as this thread. I,ve seen it so far as a quite imperfect effort(this & that comment intended) toward what might just be of benefit to more than a few members.It's high time for the MOA liaison to have a write up in ON, since "here" it seems to be an "issue" with several persons? No, I'm not taking shots at that person, just the job description they hold. I do agree that he thread title is off the mark, the ideas are closer to a real need indeed.
Kudos to the moderator for allowing a bit of "raspiness" to go on here. I can see some light down there...