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Again, your mind exceeds mine by use of this term: ex cathedra

Hopefully I can say this within the forum as I was brought up in the Catholic church but bailed out long ago. Catholics are taught the Pope is infallible. Of course, the Bible states no one is perfect, not one except the Lord. Just as the Catholic church feels it is perfect so does BMW. Isn't it strange how we attempt to fool ourselves.

It means they did it from their seat of authority, more or less, just waved their wand and made it so because they could.

The only perfect people are in cemeteries. YMMV.
 
You are correct in what you say. IMO it is not clear whether the club even wants a person of this nature to be associated with the club. People seem to get really side tracked and get to imagining money being siphoned from the coffers for advocacy expense to use an example. Until there seems to be a recognition of the fact that something of this nature MAY provide a benefit is there a point to drawing up plans for the infrastructure of such a position? Is that the cart before the horse?

My post was not specifically aimed at you but let me respond to your points.

It is not a question of the club wanting a person of this nature. It has supported the position of liaison in the past. This thread started with a post by a member asking for a stronger response from the club and included you in the process.

"I agree with Billy Walker and many other forum members that the MOA needs a more powerful voice to be able to influence BMW NA to take a second look at problems when they occur".

In the process of the discussion to this point at least one member has expressed some movement in this direction as part of the membership renewal decision process for them. So no I don?t think it is putting the cart before the horse. The two of them have been running down the road for years.

I am not concerned about money being siphoned from the coffers of the MOA. There are people and systems in place to deal with and manage that.

I am far more concerned about the expenditure of volunteer effort, personal capital and membership hopes/fears raised while this group figures out how they want to chase the horse and cart if they ever figure out a way to capture them what they will do with it.
 
My post was not specifically aimed at you but let me respond to your points.

It is not a question of the club wanting a person of this nature. It has supported the position of liaison in the past. This thread started with a post by a member asking for a stronger response from the club and included you in the process.

"I agree with Billy Walker and many other forum members that the MOA needs a more powerful voice to be able to influence BMW NA to take a second look at problems when they occur".

In the process of the discussion to this point at least one member has expressed some movement in this direction as part of the membership renewal decision process for them. So no I don?t think it is putting the cart before the horse. The two of them have been running down the road for years.

I am not concerned about money being siphoned from the coffers of the MOA. There are people and systems in place to deal with and manage that.

I am far more concerned about the expenditure of volunteer effort, personal capital and membership hopes/fears raised while this group figures out how they want to chase the horse and cart if they ever figure out a way to capture them what they will do with it.

Having an adversarial relationship with BMW serves no one, but neither does a master/servant paradigm. I would hope that both sides could have a relationship that is more open and adult as opposed to one that seems to have a little fear on our side of the fence. It doesn't have to be that way, but both parties have to be willing too and it requires some frank discussion in private. May be that has happened, I don't know. At this point the horse is not only dead, but is way past the expiration date. :banghead In retrospect, it didn't have to come to this and I say that to all parties.
 
Having an adversarial relationship with BMW serves no one, but neither does a master/servant paradigm. I would hope that both sides could have a relationship that is more open and adult as opposed to one that seems to have a little fear on our side of the fence. It doesn't have to be that way, but both parties have to be willing too and it requires some frank discussion in private. May be that has happened, I don't know. At this point the horse is not only dead, but is way past the expiration date. :banghead In retrospect, it didn't have to come to this and I say that to all parties.

It need not be adversarial at all. But frank discussion does need to be involved and you need an OEM that can admit failures when appropriate.
 
Wow, six pages plus of discussion that still hasn't gotten down to the bottom line. You can have all the ombudsmen you want, but in the end the only way to effect a change in a manufacturer's quality control, warranty support, or customer treatment is to vote with your wallet and your feet. The changes that have taken place in domestic auto producers of the last two decades, when US buyers were tripping over themselves to buy import cars, is a case in point.

I have a good friend whose wedge-k was repurchased by BMW after sitting unused in the dealer's service bay for nearly a year after a cam chain jump that destroyed the top end. He's currently riding a Ducati Multstrada, purchased in part using his proceeds from BMW. Oh yes, and the dealership in question is now closed. Vote with your wallet, vote with your feet, ride your new non-BMW machine back to your dealer and politely make sure he understands why you're now on a different marque and make sure he passes the message upchannel. When dealer orders drop off NA and AG will want to know why, hopefully they will understand that it's NOT THE ECONOMY, STUPID and address the issues.

BMWMOA is not the organization or vehicle to fix any customer support/warranty issues, and the OP should have done his voting years ago by trading the vehicle off-- if you're going to take a $$ hit the sooner you take it the sooner you will get over it and move on.

All IMHO of course.

Best,

GTRider
 
Wow, six pages plus of discussion that still hasn't gotten down to the bottom line. You can have all the ombudsmen you want, but in the end the only way to effect a change in a manufacturer's quality control, warranty support, or customer treatment is to vote with your wallet and your feet. The changes that have taken place in domestic auto producers of the last two decades, when US buyers were tripping over themselves to buy import cars, is a case in point.

I have a good friend whose wedge-k was repurchased by BMW after sitting unused in the dealer's service bay for nearly a year after a cam chain jump that destroyed the top end. He's currently riding a Ducati Multstrada, purchased in part using his proceeds from BMW. Oh yes, and the dealership in question is now closed. Vote with your wallet, vote with your feet, ride your new non-BMW machine back to your dealer and politely make sure he understands why you're now on a different marque and make sure he passes the message upchannel. When dealer orders drop off NA and AG will want to know why, hopefully they will understand that it's NOT THE ECONOMY, STUPID and address the issues.

BMWMOA is not the organization or vehicle to fix any customer support/warranty issues, and the OP should have done his voting years ago by trading the vehicle off-- if you're going to take a $$ hit the sooner you take it the sooner you will get over it and move on.

All IMHO of course.

Best,

GTRider

And like HD, customer loyalty keeps the brand alive and in this case, in spite of the mistakes. I wonder how other brands stack up in terms of customer service? It's almost impossible to measure, but it would be interesting it wasn't. I have the feeling the dealer can make a big difference in how things go.
 
And like HD, customer loyalty keeps the brand alive and in this case, in spite of the mistakes. I wonder how other brands stack up in terms of customer service? It's almost impossible to measure, but it would be interesting it wasn't. I have the feeling the dealer can make a big difference in how things go.

If you flatter the customer by telling them how discerning they are for purchasing your exclusive brand and the customer chooses to believe that, you can defer on customer service as something needed by "lesser" brands. This may work at the local and national level, until you exhaust the supply of gullible customers.
 
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If you flatter the customer by telling them how discerning they are for purchasing your exclusive brand and customer chooses to believe that, you can defer on customer service as something needed by "lesser" brands. This works at the local and national level, until you exhaust the supply of gullible customers.

There have been times that some dealers will go to bat for the customer and even eat a repair. Not all dealers do this. The dealer in question with the K1600 was Bob's. May be they value their reputation with the customers. I don't know. I think at this point I am beyond thinking or believing I own something particularly exclusive. A little different, yes. :D
 
Bmwna

Rule #1 BMWNA NEVER ADMITS FAULT-They didn't punch you in the nose, you hit them in the fist with your face.
Rule #2 Follow the great 20th century African Hunter Robert Ruark's advice and USE ENOUGH GUN
Rule #3 Re #2 in the 70's BMW M30 car engines regularly cracked heads because BMW was using thermal reactors rather than cats and this occurred regularly; in this case, enough gun took the form of a class action lawsuit to slap the arrogance out of BMWNA and get customers cars fixed

Finally,

I absolutely disagree that this should not be a club issue. The BMW Car Club of America has advocates who indeed do intercede on behalf of their members with dealers and BMWNA. Those of us who vacationed in the "Tropical Paradise" (AKA Viet Nam) learned one lesson if nothing else; UNIT LOYALTY!!! If we don't take care of our own, what good are we?

Regards,

Will
 
Rule #1 BMWNA NEVER ADMITS FAULT-They didn't punch you in the nose, you hit them in the fist with your face.
Rule #2 Follow the great 20th century African Hunter Robert Ruark's advice and USE ENOUGH GUN
Rule #3 Re #2 in the 70's BMW M30 car engines regularly cracked heads because BMW was using thermal reactors rather than cats and this occurred regularly; in this case, enough gun took the form of a class action lawsuit to slap the arrogance out of BMWNA and get customers cars fixed

Finally,

I absolutely disagree that this should not be a club issue. The BMW Car Club of America has advocates who indeed do intercede on behalf of their members with dealers and BMWNA. Those of us who vacationed in the "Tropical Paradise" (AKA Viet Nam) learned one lesson if nothing else; UNIT LOYALTY!!! If we don't take care of our own, what good are we?

Regards,

Will

In some ways this reminds me of the press and politicians of a certain political party. Because they agree and want access, they are reluctant if not negligent in reporting negative things because they don't want to lose access. In a sense, may be this is more about the politics of the relationship as anything else.

I'll add something else. There's a saying in Italian and it goes like this: Uno pesce puzza dalla testa. I am sure there is something similar in German.
 
Agreed. How about starting one? :rolleyes

Ian

The best way to deal with this sort of thing is directly and realistically. So, to Randy, MOA isn't going to help and BMWNA isn't going to give you what you want or may even deserve. Not happening on both accounts and the order of the day is Res Ipsa Loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. If it were me, I'd have someone crush the bike down to the size of a basketball and deliver it to BMWNA and tell them thanks, and then move on to another brand. They don't deserve your loyalty and the issue is done. Anything else is a waste of time.
 
Ahh, one of the advantages of having ridden the same motorcycle for the past 40 years ... no warranty hassles. :dance
 
Free flowing positive discussions?

I made the suggestion much earlier in this thread for those who thought they had a better idea to develop a proposal for the MOA Board. Now I see discussion about whether there is support for such a thing. It's not realistic to expect the Board to say they support something until there is a fairly well defined proposal to evaluate and respond to. Good ideas come from all different directions, and often a great idea comes from a not-so-great one that was sent back for rework. Again - if you want to see change - be part of it.

My personal suggestions - and these are personal and you are free to take them or leave them as you choose - would be to first decide if you are proposing a "mediator" or "advocate" role for the club. There is a world of difference, not the least of which is that advocacy requires complete validation of the plaintiff's claims and will remove the club from any hint of neutrality. However, it is an approach used by some organizations.

Secondly, based on my experience, this must be a confidential process between the specific parties, and most certainly not conducted on forums or other social media. IMHO such things complete distort the process, harden positions, and reduce flexibility of the parties involved. However, some people like circuses and believe strongly in the power of consumers applying pressure through social media. Again - these are my personal suggestions - do as you will with your ideas.

Below is a list of elements generally considered to be required for a good project outline. A useful first draft of an idea doesn't have address all of them, but at some point before a final decision can be made just about all of them will need some type of an answer. For now, think of them as thought triggers to help in consideration of all sides of your ideas.

I will leave you with this: this is fundamentally a volunteer membership driven club. At the end of the day it's the club the member's want either because of their involvement, or the lack thereof. Anyone can throw stones, but it takes work and thought to stack them together into something useful.


Project Definition Required Elements

Purpose?This section should answer the "Why?" question and clearly communicate the expected business value. It should reference the organizational objective being supported, the business problem being solved, and its relative priority level.

Goals and Objectives?This section is derived from the Purpose and communicates the targeted outcomes for the project. It should answer the "What are you going to accomplish?" question.

Success Criteria?Closely related to Goals and Objectives, this section should list the measurable, verifiable results that will determine
the success level of this project. This section is often referred to as Critical Success Factors.

Project Context?Documents how this project relates to other projects within the product program and within the organization as a whole. This section should also describe how the project fits within the organization and business process flow.

Project Dependencies?Closely related to Project Context, this section dearly documents any dependencies that could impact the results or success factors of this project.

Scope Specifications?Clearly designates the organizational, process, systems, and functional specification boundaries for the project. Should be high-level breakdown of the Goals and Objectives.

Out-of-Scope Specifications?To better communicate what is considered to be "in scope," it is recommended that you clearly indicate the high level work items that are related (or associated) to this initiative, but are not part of this project.

Assumptions?This section clearly communicates the underlying basis or things to be considered true in regards to any other aspect of this document. In most cases, the Scope, Out-of-Scope, Assumptions, and Constraints sections combine to clearly define what work will be performed by this project.

Constraints?This section lists any business event, schedule, budgetary, resource, or technical factor that will limit the options available to the project.

Risks?This section lists any uncertain event or condition (risk) that, if it occurs, could have a negative impact on one or more project success criterion (schedule, budget, quality, and so on). For each risk, it is good to list the related causes, the perceived negative impacts, the likelihood it will occur, and the planned response strategy and action items.

Stakeholders?This section lists all the individuals, business units, and organizations involved in the project, the role(s) each is expected to play, and an indication of how they relate to one another. A Project Organization chart and a Stakeholder-Role
Description Table is highly recommended here.

Recommended Project Approach?To better describe the intent of the initiative, this section highlights the recommended approach to getting the work of the project done and why it was selected over any other options. This section should note any key strategies, methodologies, and technologies to be used.
 
I made the suggestion much earlier in this thread for those who thought they had a better idea to develop a proposal for the MOA Board. Now I see discussion about whether there is support for such a thing. It's not realistic to expect the Board to say they support something until there is a fairly well defined proposal to evaluate and respond to. Good ideas come from all different directions, and often a great idea comes from a not-so-great one that was sent back for rework. Again - if you want to see change - be part of it.

My personal suggestions - and these are personal and you are free to take them or leave them as you choose - would be to first decide if you are proposing a "mediator" or "advocate" role for the club. There is a world of difference, not the least of which is that advocacy requires complete validation of the plaintiff's claims and will remove the club from any hint of neutrality. However, it is an approach used by some organizations.

Secondly, based on my experience, this must be a confidential process between the specific parties, and most certainly not conducted on forums or other social media. IMHO such things complete distort the process, harden positions, and reduce flexibility of the parties involved. However, some people like circuses and believe strongly in the power of consumers applying pressure through social media. Again - these are my personal suggestions - do as you will with your ideas.

Below is a list of elements generally considered to be required for a good project outline. A useful first draft of an idea doesn't have address all of them, but at some point before a final decision can be made just about all of them will need some type of an answer. For now, think of them as thought triggers to help in consideration of all sides of your ideas.

I will leave you with this: this is fundamentally a volunteer membership driven club. At the end of the day it's the club the member's want either because of their involvement, or the lack thereof. Anyone can throw stones, but it takes work and thought to stack them together into something useful.


Project Definition Required Elements

Purpose?This section should answer the "Why?" question and clearly communicate the expected business value. It should reference the organizational objective being supported, the business problem being solved, and its relative priority level.

Goals and Objectives?This section is derived from the Purpose and communicates the targeted outcomes for the project. It should answer the "What are you going to accomplish?" question.

Success Criteria?Closely related to Goals and Objectives, this section should list the measurable, verifiable results that will determine
the success level of this project. This section is often referred to as Critical Success Factors.

Project Context?Documents how this project relates to other projects within the product program and within the organization as a whole. This section should also describe how the project fits within the organization and business process flow.

Project Dependencies?Closely related to Project Context, this section dearly documents any dependencies that could impact the results or success factors of this project.

Scope Specifications?Clearly designates the organizational, process, systems, and functional specification boundaries for the project. Should be high-level breakdown of the Goals and Objectives.

Out-of-Scope Specifications?To better communicate what is considered to be "in scope," it is recommended that you clearly indicate the high level work items that are related (or associated) to this initiative, but are not part of this project.

Assumptions?This section clearly communicates the underlying basis or things to be considered true in regards to any other aspect of this document. In most cases, the Scope, Out-of-Scope, Assumptions, and Constraints sections combine to clearly define what work will be performed by this project.

Constraints?This section lists any business event, schedule, budgetary, resource, or technical factor that will limit the options available to the project.

Risks?This section lists any uncertain event or condition (risk) that, if it occurs, could have a negative impact on one or more project success criterion (schedule, budget, quality, and so on). For each risk, it is good to list the related causes, the perceived negative impacts, the likelihood it will occur, and the planned response strategy and action items.

Stakeholders?This section lists all the individuals, business units, and organizations involved in the project, the role(s) each is expected to play, and an indication of how they relate to one another. A Project Organization chart and a Stakeholder-Role
Description Table is highly recommended here.

Recommended Project Approach?To better describe the intent of the initiative, this section highlights the recommended approach to getting the work of the project done and why it was selected over any other options. This section should note any key strategies, methodologies, and technologies to be used.

I've come to the conclusion personally there appears to be little to no interest in an advocate. Heck, i can't even get people to respond to the fact that BMW was intentionally dumping bad product (fuel strips) onto the marketplace. This has been an eye opener for sure. I now understand how BMW gets so many people within the organization to do what is "wrong". I need to revise my thinking on corporate America is my conclusion.
 
I've come to the conclusion personally there appears to be little to no interest in an advocate. Heck, i can't even get people to respond to the fact that BMW was intentionally dumping bad product (fuel strips) onto the marketplace. This has been an eye opener for sure. I now understand how BMW gets so many people within the organization to do what is "wrong". I need to revise my thinking on corporate America is my conclusion.

You are dealing with logic and reason on one side and beliefs on the other. Logic and reason always lose to beliefs and magic. Always. It's the core, the heart of marketing and sales, whether motorcycles, cars, microwave ovens or religion and politics. The fact is not only is there no interest for advocate amongst the throng, but not in leadership either and truth be told, what kind of teeth would one have anyway? Nothing I see here indicates that there would be much if it's even possible in the first place.

I say be satisfied that you know what you are dealing with on all levels here and get on with it. The good fight left the room a long time ago.
 
Lemon Law Revolution on Facebook was my solution.

I've come to the conclusion personally there appears to be little to no interest in an advocate. Heck, i can't even get people to respond to the fact that BMW was intentionally dumping bad product (fuel strips) onto the marketplace. This has been an eye opener for sure. I now understand how BMW gets so many people within the organization to do what is "wrong". I need to revise my thinking on corporate America is my conclusion.

I agree that no one wants to question the ways of the "motherland". Basically most members would rather just pay for the defects to be "repaired" or trade it in for a new motherland product. That works fine if you have lots of money or more likely for most just go into more debt to buy a new one. If that works for them then great. But I like to live by principles and one of them is that if I make a mistake I admit it and try to make it right the best I can. I expect companies that I do business with to do the same.

So my "solution" was to start a new Facebook community page call "Lemon Law Revolution" where people can share information on defects, solutions, direct manufacture contact info with emails and phone numbers and to just bitch if they want to without someone having a fit. I have been in contact with LemonLaw.com and will be announcing that agreement next week. This new site might fail but so what, I tried. Feel free to post contact information on the page along with success and failures in getting Lemons repaired or replaced.

Thanks for your help Billy and I hope to see your insightful posts on the Lemon Law Revolution Facebook page.
 
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