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Starting Woes

I checked the air box, no signs of forced entry. This dirt was present in both cylinders. The engine will not even rotate at this point, let alone fire.

I will look into the carbon canister, that had not crossed my mind. The bike has sat for about 3 months and this dirt seems to be a new development.

One thought that occurred to me today was this; I purchased the bike last February with 86000 miles on it. The gentlemen I purchased it from told me he bought it from a guy who only owned it for a short time was displeased with the performance of the bike. It turned out the poor performance was due to a bad coil. I am wondering how many chemicals were dumped into the gas tank trying to remedy what was possibly perceived as a clogged injector. These chemicals may have burned in such a manner to cause this buildup that has just now decided to let go for some reason. I have put an additional 16000 miles on it since.

I have secured the use of a boroscope that I will employ tonight after I get home from replacing my torx socket.
 
I checked the air box, no signs of forced entry. This dirt was present in both cylinders. The engine will not even rotate at this point, let alone fire.

I will look into the carbon canister, that had not crossed my mind. The bike has sat for about 3 months and this dirt seems to be a new development.

One thought that occurred to me today was this; I purchased the bike last February with 86000 miles on it. The gentlemen I purchased it from told me he bought it from a guy who only owned it for a short time was displeased with the performance of the bike. It turned out the poor performance was due to a bad coil. I am wondering how many chemicals were dumped into the gas tank trying to remedy what was possibly perceived as a clogged injector. These chemicals may have burned in such a manner to cause this buildup that has just now decided to let go for some reason. I have put an additional 16000 miles on it since.

I have secured the use of a boroscope that I will employ tonight after I get home from replacing my torx socket.

If you're positive the foreign matter came out of the spark plug holes you just need to begin with a top end tear down boroscope or no boroscope. The fact that the engine will not spin is bad sign #2. Best of luck here. Please do let us know what you find.
 
I tried rotating it with the rear wheel but it doesn't want to budge.

When I did my valves and tried to rotate the engine with the rear wheel, it took ALOT of grunt to move it,(yes with both side spark plugs removed!)..so much needed that my girlfriend couldnt do it. Are you putting enough grunt to it?
 
I was wondering if you recently bought this bike and one of the prior owners treated the bike like sh-t. Did PO number 1 or 2 leave this outside in the rain etc. and mistreated or as another above suggested vandalized. The gas filter would prevent any nasties from being delivered to the engine but what if the innards of the tank were rusted out? Take a looksee in the tank and even in the throttle bodies. Sorry you have to go through this nightmare but something is seriously not right here. I have to wonder if someone did something nasty to the prior owner(s) and I'm sure this is going through your mind too. For anything to really get into those cylinders, it has to be small enough to get through the injectors and other small orifices. It would have to be a liquid type product or inherent to the cylinder workings. What could rust or deteriorate in the cylinder to produce that type of byproduct. Rings as they are steel, a sleeve in the cylinder?
 
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The carbon granules inside the canister have no problem getting into the engine - with too much gas and high vacuum, they're sucked right through the hoses and air orifices.

As for dirt around the spark plugs - that's why it is Absolutely Necessary to use lots of high-pressure compressed air down the access tunnel (BEFORE removing the plug) AND through the front & rear airflow ports in the head.
 
As for dirt around the spark plugs - that's why it is Absolutely Necessary to use lots of high-pressure compressed air down the access tunnel (BEFORE removing the plug) AND through the front & rear airflow ports in the head.


+1+1+1+1+1 Amazing the amount of debris that comes out.
 
Also - if the hose or cap slips off the bottom throttle-body nipple, you are now sucking in unfiltered air. More crapitation, tarpiculates, etc. (and why I add a little ty-wrap there)
 
Had a little time to work on it tonight.

Snapped another torx socket but eventually got the bolt out.

Removed the right side valve cover and everything appears to be in order in there. There doesn't appear to be a stuck valve or any other mechanical failure with the valve train.

Only twisted off one exhaust manifold stud. Next step is to separate the exhaust at the converter(any tips here would be greatly appreciated.)

The dirt in the pics was not from the exterior of the heads, it came from the combustion chamber.

The caps are still on the throttle body nipples, dry and cracked but intact.

The throttle body on the left side is spotless. I haven't gotten into the right side yet.
 
The clamp holding the header pipe to the catalytic/muffler end does get quite rusty from the heat and road moisture and debris. I had a time getting mine off but patience and penetrating oil like Kroil works. You can also mix up some tranny fluid and acetone and squirt some on there. Walk away. Do it again some time later and then try again. If it is still frozen you'll need to use heat. A pain, but it will come apart eventually.

Anti seize when re-installing helps future removals go easier.

The amount of stuff in your hand is shocking. As stated before it is hard to imagine that coming out of a cylinder. When you say it just poured out into your hand you mean all that came from the recess in a spark plug?
Not sure if anyone asked yet but did you blow out the spark plug holes and cooling airways in the heads before you removed the plugs? If you did and I missed it just ignore...
 
Yes, all of that dirt was poured out of a spark plug. It was in the space between the electrode and the body. I got the same amount out of the other one.
 
Yes, all of that dirt was poured out of a spark plug. It was in the space between the electrode and the body. I got the same amount out of the other one.

Perhaps the dirt is a 'red herring'. You took out old plugs, which did not have dirt in them, then put new ones in, and the bike has not run with the new plugs, correct? I take a WAG that when fitting the new plugs into the hole, dirt from the channel in the heads that leads to the hole was knocked loose and into the spark plugs. You may be very lucky that the motor didn't start with this dirt introduced into the engine!

I take another WAG that there is another reason the bike wont turn over, unrelated to the 'dirt' since it 'froze up' with the old plugs still in it at your work last January. I suspect some sort of mis alignment with the starter causing it to drag?



If my facts, as I understand them, are wrong, then never mind!
 
Another thought to keep in mind is that 'something' "wore out'' and probably didn't 'break', due to the fact that the problem got progressively worse over time.

Are you able to turn the motor over with a big wrench on the crankshaft bolt? Like I said earlier, trying to turn the motor over with the rear wheel was quite a chore, I had to sit behind the bike and pull with both hands while the girl held the bike.
 
ok, last thought ...maybe the alternator is froze up?, preventing the engine from turning over. The internals may have been slowly binding and finally seized? Take the belt off and see if it frees up the motor?

I just think the dirt is not the problem, But if I am wrong, I will be the first in line to admit it.
 
Well...here's two dumb questions that haven't been covered, yet....have you absolutely,positively checked to see if maybe you don't have a bad ground connection? How does the starter react turning over the motor with the plugs out?
 
Like I said earlier, trying to turn the motor over with the rear wheel was quite a chore, I had to sit behind the bike and pull with both hands while the girl held the bike.

"...I had to sit behind the bike and pull with both hands..."

Were you turning the wheel backwards? If yes, it might explain your difficulty - you were turning the engine backwards, too. If no, hopefully you were in 4th gear or higher with the plugs out. I've found that makes it much easier to turn over the engine using this method.

Now, back to the original issue....
 
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"...I had to sit behind the bike and pull with both hands..."

Were you turning the wheel backwards? If yes, it might explain your difficulty - you were turning the engine backwards, too. If no, hopefully you were in 4th gear or higher with the plugs out. I've found that makes it much easier to turn over the engine using this method.

Now, back to the original issue....

yeah, should not be that hard to turn the motor over using rear wheel. i'm approaching 60, and can still one hand mine- going in correct direction, plugs out, 5th or 6th gear.

as to the starting issue; i'm leaning towards the "dirt" being schmutz from the canister. not totally sure as to how that is impacting the starting issue. however, if you truly can't turn the motor over, even with plugs out, consider what could be preventing that. interference at valves? broken cam chain?
 
Found the source of the "dirt"

I've torn apart a few engines and have never seen buildup like this. It just flakes off and the cylinder bore looks fine. I still need to remove the right side head and clean everything up and then find the source of the binding.
Left Piston.jpg
 
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