Suspension hitting hard on 2012 RT

I don't remember if I have posted on this subject before. I may have, because it's something that has been bothering me for a while. If i did, forgive me. Here goes: I ride a 2012 RT, with ESA, Michelin PR3 at 36/40 and 9,000 miles on the clock. Now, in Montreal, the street are in a terrible state of disrepair, like you wouldn't believe. Pot holes, cracks, bumps, dips, patches of hastily dumped bad quality asphalt... you name it. It's not here and there, it's absolutely everywhere. Not one street has even a mediocre surface, they're just horrible. I usually set the ESA at one helmet preload (82 kgs rider and two empty panniers), and Comfort damping in town. But when I ride at medium or slow speed on cracks and bumps, the feeling of the suspension is like there was none at all. The hits are so hard and sharp it feels like I'm riding on wooden wheels. I get so shaken, I have to stand on the pegs (which makes me regret having traded my GS for the RT.)

Am I the only one experiencing this? Is it a fact of life I have to accept because no shocks will absorb this kind ot irregularities, or is it because the OEM shocks are just mediocre. Or, God forbid, that my shocks are shot?

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

There's only so much the suspension can do. You might try increasing the preload to give you a little more travel, but a terrible road is a terrible road.

Hammam said:

I don't remember if I have posted on this subject before. I may have, because it's something that has been bothering me for a while. If i did, forgive me. Here goes: I ride a 2012 RT, with ESA, Michelin PR3 at 36/40 and 9,000 miles on the clock. Now, in Montreal, the street are in a terrible state of disrepair, like you wouldn't believe. Pot holes, cracks, bumps, dips, patches of hastily dumped bad quality asphalt... you name it. It's not here and there, it's absolutely everywhere. Not one street has even a mediocre surface, they're just horrible. I usually set the ESA at one helmet preload (82 kgs rider and two empty panniers), and Comfort damping in town. But when I ride at medium or slow speed on cracks and bumps, the feeling of the suspension is like there was none at all. The hits are so hard and sharp it feels like I'm riding on wooden wheels. I get so shaken, I have to stand on the pegs (which makes me regret having traded my GS for the RT.)

Am I the only one experiencing this? Is it a fact of life I have to accept because no shocks will absorb this kind ot irregularities, or is it because the OEM shocks are just mediocre. Or, God forbid, that my shocks are shot?

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

Click to expand...

For bad roads, the damping needs to be a bit stiffer to handle those big bumps and avoid bottoming the suspension. You can break the aluminum castings on these Paralevers using too soft of a setting with too little spring preload...ask me how I know!

If I had ESA, I'd find a typical nasty piece of street for a test....Then:

-Start at the loosest setting (1 helmet?) I'd try the "Comfort" setting.

-Then, I'd go back and try the Sport setting to tighten up the damping with the same pre-load.

-Then I'd go back to the comfort setting, change to (1 helmet/full bags) and try that.

-Then I'd try "1 helmet/full bags" with the Sport setting.

-Then I'd try Comfort and Sport with the "2 helmets" setting etc.

By now, you've probably found the "sweet spot" for bad roads, but go ahead and try each setting. It will give you an idea about what these settings actually do. Also read the rider's manual that came with your bike. There is surprisingly useful information in it.

When you have the best setting for rough streets, remember it and use it. For touring and other uses, just sweeten to taste.

The most comfortable setting for any road is the one that uses as much of the full travel of the suspension as possible but never bottoms or tops out. Use just enough damping to slow down the wheel movement to avoid bottoming/topping.

rtwiz said:

For bad roads, the damping needs to be a bit stiffer to handle those big bumps and avoid bottoming the suspension. You can break the aluminum castings on these Paralevers using too soft of a setting with too little spring preload...ask me how I know!

If I had ESA, I'd find a typical nasty piece of street for a test....Then:

-Start at the loosest setting (1 helmet?) I'd try the "Comfort" setting.

-Then, I'd go back and try the Sport setting to tighten up the damping with the same pre-load.

-Then I'd go back to the comfort setting, change to (1 helmet/full bags) and try that.

-Then I'd try "1 helmet/full bags" with the Sport setting.

-Then I'd try Comfort and Sport with the "2 helmets" setting etc.

By now, you've probably found the "sweet spot" for bad roads, but go ahead and try each setting. It will give you an idea about what these settings actually do. Also read the rider's manual that came with your bike. There is surprisingly useful information in it.

When you have the best setting for rough streets, remember it and use it. For touring and other uses, just sweeten to taste.

The most comfortable setting for any road is the one that uses as much of the full travel of the suspension as possible but never bottoms or tops out. Use just enough damping to slow down the wheel movement to avoid bottoming/topping.

Click to expand...

Thank you for you suggestions. I've already tried changing preload and damping, but I will try again, with more method. Come Spring. The problem is not with the big bumps on the road, and it's not bottoming, it's all those little 1/2 inch cracks, holes and edges on city streets. They always hit hard, and the panniers rattle every time.

I know what you mean. 2006 RT with ESA and sometimes I'd swear there were no shocks or springs in the bike at all. Rides on rough surfaces like a hard tail from the 50s. I run preload at one helmet and comfort on rebound. Doesn't make much difference and the bike never pogo sticks as though there weren't enough damping. Someday I'll get rid of the ESA and go with standard adjusteble suspension like Wilbers etc. Wish Koni was still around.

05Train said:

There's only so much the suspension can do. You might try increasing the preload to give you a little more travel, but a terrible road is a terrible road.

Click to expand...

So, you don't think that BMW's average quality OEM shocks could be responsible, and that changing up for better (Wilbers, ?ûhlins) would help?

Hammam said:

So, you don't think that BMW's average quality OEM shocks could be responsible, and that changing up for better (Wilbers, ?ûhlins) would help?

Click to expand...

Sure, that could help. But I'd start with the free stuff first.

05Train said:

Sure, that could help. But I'd start with the free stuff first.

Click to expand...

Train:

That's what I was going with...the free solution...if there is one. I've had 3 RTs. I got Ohlins for my '99. When I got my 1150, I had them modified to fit. The '05 1200 with no ESA wasn't able to be modified so I bought a set of top-end Wilbers for it right away. Stock shocks on the '05 are OK, but I think the rear spring is too much and the front seemed really harsh.

The Wilburs came to me set up way too hard...bought from the Wilburs guy on the East Coast. They were a big improvement over stock, but not as nice as my Ohlins were on the other two bikes. I didn't like them until I had them rebuilt by The Beemer Shop in California. Since then, they've been really lovely.

If you buy new shocks or have a good set that need rebuilding, I can recommend Beemer Shop. He sets them up right. The owner works on shocks and supervises everything. He rides and personally knows how they tick and should be done.

rtwiz said:

Train:

I didn't like them until I had them rebuilt by The Beemer Shop in California. Since then, they've been really lovely.

If you buy new shocks or have a good set that need rebuilding, I can recommend Beemer Shop. He sets them up right. The owner works on shocks and supervises everything. He rides and personally knows how they tick and should be done.

Click to expand...

+1 On Ted Porters Beemershop. I am still exploring the settings on my '12 RT NON ESA Yacugar setup after 8000 miles. The adjustability, ride and handling are greatly improved 1 up or 2 up. 5 year warranty. Give him a call. No affliation just a happy customer.

Suspension

I have a 2008 RT.
I ride with one helmet, with luggage setting on and on sport mode. I find comfort to squishy and an uncomfortable ride, normal I find pretty good but not as tight as sport.

I live in BC, and the roads are not great, but I know what you mean, Montr?®al's roads are pretty bad.

I would also try the sport setting on your preload.

I've never had bottoming out. Good luck

Comfort is really for pure slap work only. That's a Highway with excellent road condition, no matter what the pre-load.
I find for myself that normal or sport are the only settings for normal roads, depending how hard you push with pre-load to suit.

For me ESA works great.
Personally I have issues that others keep bringing up "custom shocks" that are tuned specific to their riding style and weight and compare them to the OE shocks that have to suit a wide range of rider styles and weights.

If you are bottoming the suspension, you need more preload on the spring OR a stiffer spring.

Springs hold the bike up, shocks control the springs.

More preload, two helmets will set the bike a little higher needing more travel to compress the spring.

Two helmets and luggage may be better yet.

I was getting similar problems with my 12R1200R. Expansion bumps were kicking me off the bike. More preload fixed the problem.

If the spring is too soft, the compression damping on the shock will work harder making your ride harder. This is only on high speed compression damping. Not the bike going high speed, but the shock working at high speed over sharp bumps.

Have you checked the suspension sag with rider on front and rear? What is it?

more later
David

The RT has a crappy front suspension. Even here in NC when mine was new I was surprised at the ease with which it bottomed in normal riding. Now that I've got multiple bikes almost ready to go I might look at improving that lousy front. What it needs is a better shock function tat doesn't operate like a low pressure pop off valve, going to nothing so easily.
Otherwise you're stuck with it but you may get somewhat used to it, as I have.
Why the rate is so far off in stick trim (noI;m not a heavy rider) I've got no idea. I don't rmemeber roads in Germany being all that stellar compared to where I live.

Thank you for your advice and opinions, my friends. But let me say again: I do no bottom out. This is not the problem I'm trying to describe. On sharp and short craks and holes in the city the bike hits like it has wooden whels. It's a sharp knock. Let me try an image here: remember those ancient roller skates with metal wheels? Well, imagine you're going down a 1/2 inch step with them. That's the feeling. Hitting down hard and quick.

Roads here in Norfolk VA are lousy. I've had a '10 and '11 RT and the front ends do tend to act like jackhammers. I weigh 170 or so, and I ride without the sidecases but I do also ride with the topcase always on. I prefer the Solo position with the setting at comfort. I put my tire pressures 3 or 4 pounds above the recommeded solo settings. If your pressure is set for two-up, that could be the problem. The tire is part of the suspension, as well.

One thing you've not mentioned is your weight when riding, and how your bike is typically loaded. Factory shocks, whether standard or ESA, are a compromise in setup. Factory shocks are best set for the "medium" rider. So for North America, I would guess that to be a rider abour 5'-8" tall and about 225 lbs in full riding gear. If you are a rider at the light end of the scale, the factory setup may seem harsh and you'd need to adjust to the lightest preload and softest damping rates. A rider at the heavy end of the scale would need the highest preload and harder damping rates. But not being in the 'mid-range" of the factory setup limits the range of how the suspension can be set for you. That's why one bike may ride great for one rider and for crap for another. But a quality suspension is set up for each specific rider, his weight, his bike loading, his riding style, at the middle range of the suspension. This gives the best initial ride with broader adjustment capability.

On short, sharp bumps (actually drop-offs) if the rebound damping is too high, the shocks are always trying to restrain the extension of the suspension slower than it could extend to "step" down the edge, and the bike feels like it just drops or falls over the bump. In some cases of multiple sharp bumps in a row, high rebound damping actually causes the suspension to keep compressing almost to the point of no active suspension until it has a chance to "stretch".

But then on the bigger bumps/dips, too high a compression damping causes the suspension to "stiffen up" too quick and not allow full travel to be absorbed by the spring. On bikes with no rebound damping it gives the feel of the bike pogoing over the bumps.

On the older Jap bikes many of us grew up on, the easy (cheap)answer was to "over-sprung" the bike and "under damp" the compression damping, with no rebound damping. But all better suspensions are usually lighter, longer springs and more refined damping. The lighter spring allows for easier initial wheel travel and the better damping slows the suspension action near the limits.

I ride with the ESA set to two helmets and normal damping most of the time. The only time I really bottomed it out was on the Apache Trail, and there I had to set it to comfort to soften the ride.

I did not read your original post close enough. (Just wasn't listening )
"
I still had the same problem. Bike pounded me on expansion bumps on the highway. girlfriend (passenger) too.

Once I cranked the preload all the way up and rebound only open 1/4 turn it rode like it should. Smooth as can be with both of us on the bike. We took back roads from northern Pa to northern NY for a whole day. Ride was superb.

I can not keep my rear shock preolad on LOW or the rebound on soft or the bike beats the crap outa me.
I took the rear shock out and am sending it to get a slightly stiffer spring.

Like I said earlier, Spring too soft, the compression valve in the shock works too hard making the bike beat me up. a little stiffer spring will make for a softer ride under those conditions.

I also have issiues with getting proper sag with a passenger and load. Bike is supposed to carry almost 500 lbs payload. When I put the "little woman" on and all our stuff, the bike sits 2" or 58 mm too low. More proof my rear spring is just too weak. We are no where near the 500 lb load limit.

Riding solo, no bags, the adjuster is on "Normal" Anything below that and I have too much sag. This is when the ride gets harsh, especially expansion bumps on the expressway.

I guess what I am saying is try 2 helmets and at least normal for damping.

Its costing me $110 plus shipping my shock to get a slightly stiffer spring.


David

DROOT153718 said:

I did not read your original post close enough. (Just wasn't listening )
"
I still had the same problem. Bike pounded me on expansion bumps on the highway. girlfriend (passenger) too.

Once I cranked the preload all the way up and rebound only open 1/4 turn it rode like it should. Smooth as can be with both of us on the bike. We took back roads from northern Pa to northern NY for a whole day. Ride was superb.

I can not keep my rear shock preolad on LOW or the rebound on soft or the bike beats the crap outa me.
I took the rear shock out and am sending it to get a slightly stiffer spring.

Like I said earlier, Spring too soft, the compression valve in the shock works too hard making the bike beat me up. a little stiffer spring will make for a softer ride under those conditions.

I also have issiues with getting proper sag with a passenger and load. Bike is supposed to carry almost 500 lbs payload. When I put the "little woman" on and all our stuff, the bike sits 2" or 58 mm too low. More proof my rear spring is just too weak. We are no where near the 500 lb load limit.

Riding solo, no bags, the adjuster is on "Normal" Anything below that and I have too much sag. This is when the ride gets harsh, especially expansion bumps on the expressway.

I guess what I am saying is try 2 helmets and at least normal for damping.

Its costing me $110 plus shipping my shock to get a slightly stiffer spring.


David

Click to expand...

David:

I'm not understanding. You and your GF were in perfect comfort with the preload adjusted almost full and shock adjusted full on, so adjust it full on! When she's not on it and you don't have bags, back the pre-load down a turn.

Here are some things you need to know.

1st...The damping screw only has about 1.5 turns total range. Screw it in all the way. Try it, then back out by 1/4 turns until it's too sloppy, then screw it back in 1/8 or 1/4 as needed using the test road. Past 1.5 turns, it's pulled away from the shock and it's just a screw turning in the housing. It seems like there's 20 turns of adjustment, but there's only 1.5 turns. You can remove the screw and shine a flashlight in there to see what's going on. There's a metal button on the side of the shock. The long screw pushes it in. The farther the button is pushed down, the more damping, but the screw only contacts the button for 1.5 turns.

2nd....I don't think you need a new spring. The springs on those stock shocks are really strong...too strong, at least with mine. If you and your SO and luggage can go cross country in comfort, the spring is OK.

3rd...But the dampers are not very strong. They need to be almost all the way in.

4th... Get over the idea that less spring or less damping is going to be more comfortable. This is why you think you need the spring all the way loose and the shock backed out all the way. You're hitting the stops on these bad roads. The stops inside the shock are bits of hard plastic...very harsh and it's very hard on the Paralever casting to bottom out a lot.

The spring preload is to adjust the level of the bike loaded with what you have to carry on it. It should sink about 1/4 to 1/3 of total travel with a static load on it...You and your stuff. I use a wooden paint stir-stick from the hardware store.

With bike on center stand, and the right side bag off, place one end of the stick on the rear casting so the stick comes straight up from the axle of the rear wheel. Put a piece of tape on the back bodywork above the wheel so the stick intersects. Pencil a reference mark on the stick where it intersects with one edge of the tape.

Then load the bike and measure the difference by reaching back and putting your thumbnail at the point on the stick where it now intersects the edge of the tape. (You need a helper to hold the bike, probably.) Mark the spot where your thumb nail is. Measure the distance between the two marks. It should be around 1.5 to 1.75". Adjust the spring until it is.

The damping adjustment only changes rebound damping. The farther you screw it in, the slower the bike's rear suspension recovers from a bump.

If it's too "fast", the rear will sort of baby-buggy. The front of the bike will feel very unstable and on edge in turns. If the shock is too slow, going over a series of bumps will "pack up" the suspension. Suspension compresses from the bump and can't recover in time for the net one. It keeps sinking down until it's at the bottom of travel.... VERY uncomfortable.

There is no compression damping adjustment on the stock setup. It's fixed at one rate...probably for the best. You can get confused enough with just the two adjustments. I have high and low speed compression damping on my rear Wilbers shock. I have actually made the bike more comfortable by increasing compression damping before. That's because the bike was bottoming and a little compression damping stopped it from hitting the bump-stop.

I'm 190 or so lbs. with gear on. There's plenty of spring for me and a passenger and gear on the stock shock.

I wouldn't waste my money on a new spring for the stock shock. Doesn't sound like the answer to me...and it doesn't solve the problem of the front shock being rock hard over bumps. Either talk to Beemer Werks or figure out how to adjust what you have.

If you can swing it, aftermarket shocks are well worth the investment. They're rebuildable so they last about forever, requiring rebuilding every 20K or so (mine is at 30K and it's fine.) The damping is just so much nicer and you get more adjustments. Beemer Werks will ask you how much you and your passenger weigh, what model of BMW and some questions about how you ride. Then they'll send you a set of shocks that are already adjusted pretty damned well.

Whether you get new or used or adjust your current shocks, you should understand what's going on with your suspension...just how it works. If you know that, you can recognize symptoms when you ride and make educated adjustments instead of stabbing in the dark.

You can offset some of the cost by modding your aftermarket shocks for your new bike when you get one ...or you can sell them.

In fact, you can look for a set of used ones on BMW classifieds and eBay. Make sure you get good, rebuildable ones. Send them to Beemer Werks for tune up and you're set.

Keep the stock shocks and re-install them when you trade or sell your current bike. I used my Ohlins on two different RTs with only some minor changes done by a tech in TN. I've had my Wilbers serviced twice already. They're working better than new.

Hope you figure all this out...Have fun!



David: Apologies. I'm getting mixed up between riders here. You are talking about ESA bikes and I'm talking about manual suspension RTs. Sorry about that...Some good info in this post for others, though, I think.

Doh!

No need to quote the post above this one.

Acording to rtwiz my rear spring is not too soft. Read my post again. With full load, bike sits 2" too low in the back.

With 45 mm sag (140*.32 or 1/3) and only ME (200lbs) on the bike I get 38" from ground to the top of the back rack.

Turn the preload (ride height) all the way up, add rest of load, girlfriend (who really is little 5'1") and measure again. I get 36" measured at the same place. Headlight points to the sky. And my spring is too strong? This on a 12 R1200R. A new bike.

Just me and girlfriend, no side cases preload all the way up, I get 37" which figures out to be about 70mm sag.

You seem to think I am not too bright, could you please explain how my spring is too stiff?
Go ahead, school me.

David
Over and out

Apologies to original poster we seem to have wandered a little. I still stand by my thought that too weak of spring or not enough preload can cause the compression damping that is built in to the shock to make the bike feel harsh on what seem to be small bumps at high speed. This was explained to me by a motorcycle suspension person.